<overheadscallop[ "what kind of headphones? the reg"> I use the adapter what came with my pixel 3. I tried different headphones some with microphone some without but I get the same message.

might be a problem with the usb port or adapter then

<overheadscallop[ "might be a problem with the usb "> The funny thing is that the GOS recognises an audio device. So I thought it's just a permission dilemma..

Not so important..

My dream phone would be a grapheneOS as backbone with a ratio (blloc) launcher.. Imao the best interface out there atm

is there a way to have a secure clipboard on desktop OS-es?

Has new update started hitting phones yet?

yes

beta channel

OK thanks.

strcat: can you explain a slot in the context of hardened_malloc?

a slot in a slab for a slab allocation

which are tracked by bits in the bitmap

1 bit per slot

so for example 16 byte allocations are in 4096 byte slabs

so that's 256 slots

you can see the table showing the size classes with the # of slots and slab sizes

in README

Okay, so is the information stored in the bitmap used to determine an upper bound for an object's size from a pointer?

Assuming it can be checked to see if it's free or not

that is, checking each slot in the slab

Happy birthday strcat

strcat: how is this whonix.org/w/index.php?title=Kicksecure&oldid=57343 ?

Think I fixed all the bad parts

Anything else?

omg he dram whores never stop lmao

* omg he drama whores never stop lmao

i just posted in the wrong place lmao

* i just posted in the wrong place lmao :/

This guy cleared his post history too

Might be a saintjohnny alt

This is starting to seem even more like coordinated attacks

Called them out and they deleted their post history again

ONE LAST BIG HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO strcat!

Thanks very much for your work, and passion. You're a hero, no homo.

Google camera now works 10out of 10. Thanks guys for the plug-in.

<renlord "is there a way to have a secure "> QubesOS

macOS has reasonable secure keyboard entry for "sensitive" things. Only remotely close thing I can think of.

How come Gcam apk is not on Aurora? I thought they are mirroring GPS

I assume because the APK is extracted from device images or something?

madaidan.: Just tried Firefox with Fission and strict CFG runs great

I'm surprised they aren't working harder on this

> I assume because the APK is extracted from device images or something?

It's on the store

All Firefox needs is to fix that media player and Windows could be very secure. I feel like their priorities are off

shrug idk where

How about FF on macOS? I really like the Temporary Container extension. Chromium profiles and the Self-Destructing Cookies extension don't offer the same level of usability.

> How about FF on macOS? I really like the Temporary Container extension. Chromium profiles and the Self-Destructing Cookies extension don't offer the same level of usability.

Firefox is only anywhere decent on Windows and iOS

Firefox on Windows is solid if you force strict CFI and turn on Fission. iOS almost all browsers are the same, but Firefox lacks important privacy features

However neither are tested to be stable and it still has way too many win32k calls due to the stupid media player

Ok. Gcam has no fails whatsoever unlike Open Camera. Pics are def better due to better HDR handling. And above all - I finally have Slowmo camera to catch best moments

Don't you mean it lacks security features? Outside of the security issues, privacy on FF can be quite good, maybe even te best if you configure it properly and with the right extensions

FF for iOS is just a skin for the Safari webview

> However neither are tested to be stable and it still has way too many win32k calls due to the stupid media player

i'm going to try to setup firefox with remoteapp in windows sandbox, that should be a pretty solid setup

note sure if remoteapp is working in windows sandbox, going to check that

> Don't you mean it lacks security features? Outside of the security issues, privacy on FF can be quite good, maybe even te best if you configure it properly and with the right extensions

Firefox privacy features are far from practical or proper. It spies more than Chrome

Arhu: Firefox on macOS can hardly be called a sandbox

Firefox: iOS > Windows > Linux > Android > macOS

Firefox Sandbox Level 3 is lacking "microphone, access to various system services, windowserver, named sysctls and iokit properties, and other miscellaneous items"

<cyredanthem[m] "Firefox Sandbox Level 3 is lacki"> Protections for*

<joshman[m] "Ok. Gcam has no fails whatsoever"> How do you get gcam

renlord[m]: github.com/LumenReaper/Gcam-Services-Provider/releases

thanks

fomijafi[m]: I don't think that it is needed to install in a separate profile as the app itself has no permissions at all... Also you can remove Network permission from Gcam and it still works.

What do you guys think of this spectrum-os.org

Google Fotos app is also confirmed working great with network access disabled

is there a wiki page for apps compatibilty/recommendations/tips?

> What do you guys think of this spectrum-os.org

Linux based system so probably pretty bad

ChromeOS is still suffering from Linux woes security wise

Android is doing pretty well, but it's had around 13 years of solid progress

joshman[m]: renor do you guys have problems with previewing photos in the app?

Nope, all working good so far

hmm

not for me :/

You can't preview?

yea lol

> is there a wiki page for apps compatibilty/recommendations/tips?

If it doesn't work on Aurora Store > try running it with microg core installed(usually breaks more than it fixes > install from the Amazon app store if that fails > install with Google play services apk with no internet

as in browsing photos inside the cam app

<matic_nick[m] "> <@cyredanthem:synapse.travnewm"> matic_nick: Qubes is not hard to use since it's awkward, it's hard to use since it's slow

qubes is hard to use and also hard to use correctly

Trade performance for security?

if your opsec is bad inside a templatevm, you are equally screwed

one vm per application is also very wasteful

renlord: where did you get the app?

The Gcam app

matic_nick: the best solution is to use ChromiumOS since it has comprehensive design

renor: apkmirror?

Qubes the security model is very easy to screw to

Up*

<renlord "one vm per application is also v"> On a decent desktop not so much of an issue I think

It's a weird solution of bolting on one really good thing onto a series of terrible things

matic_nick[m]: it is a very profound issue

even on a decent lapto

> renor: apkmirror?

Yes, me too. Latest version? I think from Jan 27

Windows 10 and ChromeOS highlight much more reasonable security models imo

renor: my variant is from Mar 19, 2020

60092239

Linux is a lost cause

I've got 56485809

win10's base offering nowadays is really good

they also ship a type 1 hypervisor for free

so you dont have to use virtualbox if you want to do linux stuff

Windows 10 also can force CFI in any app

Even Firefox runs well with it

dont even know how the fk they make money from win10

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): uR dAtA

maybe subscription and support

cyredanthem[m]: meh, you can turn off most if not all the telemetry and reporting

it is a very good offering IMO

i'd tell people to use win10

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): who does though?

Windows 10 is probably the most secure OS right now they just do almost everything right

<renlord "cyredanthem: meh, you can turn o"> My main gripe with it honestly

I might leave macOS over it

I do have verified boot though which rocks

The secure keyboard entry and rootless app installs are nothing to scoff at

I am on the fence

Normally macOS security is worth the premium. I am starting to wonder. If you're a huge Unix fan or very paranoid about privacy sure

travankor: they don't require gapps

They are yes, but they don't need to install with privilege

Just got the update. Thanks, @strcat:matrix.org

I got it too

apple walled garden is a very big tradeoff

not much of an issue on macos

but they're likely to merge ios and macos families very soon

Updated!! Thanks strcat[m] 🙂

<cyredanthem[m] "Normally macOS security is worth"> I'm pretty agnostic security/privacy wise but I there are some things the way Apple do I don't fully agree with

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): that's a good thing if they merge them imo

If they do it right

<renlord "60092239"> Where do you see app version

on the apkmirror site

7.3.021.300172532

matic_nick: Apple strikes a good balance in everything I think they don't really stand out for anything besides iOS which is amazing

is the actual vername

Yes. This is what I have

It's weird there's no Gcam apk on Aurora. I got it from Aptoide

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): what's your browser setup on Windows?

i just use the stock edge browser now

For virtualization?

since it runs inside the win10 appcontainer

<cyredanthem[m] "matic_nick: Apple strikes a good"> Yeah which is why I think running macos besides mac devices is pretty pointless thus leads me to open alternatives

i try to use the UMP win10 applications

Windows 10S at some point would be your goal to run?

*uwp

If they improve it enough

will have to see what's the feature set

for example, i need hyper-v

there are some things for productivity reasons i still need to do on linux

It's so funny how allegedly bad was windows years ago everyone was switching to Linux. Here we are in 2020 folks going Linux 2 Windows again. Who knew

<cyredanthem[m] "If they improve it enough"> On my desktop "I just want to be left alone" which isn't very Windows thing

Do you set custom hardening rules in Windows 10 Defender Security settings?

cyredanthem[m]: i turn on core isolation and memory integrity stuff

matic_nick: that's a MacOS thing which is appealing

It just werks to quote true memes

I set custom rules per app

Like Tor browser strict CFG

<cyredanthem[m] "matic_nick: that's a MacOS thing"> Again back to Apple being Apple on hardware

cyredanthem[m]: i might just use a whonix VM for anonymous stuff

That's a good idea on Hyper-V?

yeah, on hyper-v

Windows 10 and GrapheneOS are the perfect pair I think since they both have excellent hardening and they both run Chromium as it should be run

Ok. Gcam still fails very rarely. Upstream bug is still a thing though it's less annoying

still cant get photo viewing to work

Our Windows devices are the ones making most noise on our network so I personally wouldn't run it privacy wise.

<matic_nick[m] "Our Windows devices are the ones"> Their telemetry is obnoxious

Mine running Ungoogled Chromium is almost silent

I do turn everything off though

renlord, joshman[m]: The version I'm using has no problems, from Jan 27

No firewalling or privacy modding stopped it so I just gave up

How?

what?

matic_nick[m]: you have a lot of misunderstandings it seems

what does privacy modding even mean

<renlord "still cant get photo viewing to "> You need to install fotos apk

there are options to opt out of more or less everything

Windows you can easily opt out of all telemetry at least on recent versions. Turning off the smart screen and that stuff is the part I always forget

<renlord "what does privacy modding even m"> wrong word I guess

That really helps

joshman[m]: google photos?

Correct

The diagnostics you can't fully turn off, but it's nothing that fancy

joshman[m]: ok thanks

It's Google Fotos not Photos btw

Don't forget to disable network access

Windows is a nightmare in updates in many ways, sometimes they can even break your system, I think they must change that

Windows 10 LTSC might be for you

<cg_droid "Windows is a nightmare in update"> Wanna hear about Arch updates?

Zero bloat at all

I used to do mitm on our windows devices and manually block connections that trace to their telemetry, it was awful

joshman[m]: there is no Google Fotos

matic_nick: how?

cyredanthem[m], good point, never tried it

joshman[m], never used... a pain in the ass? 😀

Windows 10 LTSC is pretty baller. No Windows Sandbox though

matic_nick[m]: do you also block the update check?

No virtualized Edge

so you become more vulnerable to 0-day CVEs?

ping home == always bad huh?

cyredanthem[m], :-o without sandbox???

<renlord "matic_nick: do you also block th"> No

> so you become more vulnerable to 0-day CVEs?

Beating librem at their own game

Granted it was back when Cortana was just introduced so it wasn't regulated then

You want to know what phones home a lot? Firefox

matic_nick[m]: i think you can disable cortana now

> Granted it was back when Cortana was just introduced so it wasn't regulated then

Windows 10 is so much better now

which i did anyways

i didnt even like halo

ffs

Firefox by default has a shitload of telemetry but it can be turned off

<Arhu "Firefox by default has a shitloa"> That too

Fuck Fennec such bullshit

How many years ago did Mozilla get taken over by the privacy hostile forces?

Fuck Waterfox and fuck Gecko

Some old things should just die

renlord, joshman[m]: I'm not running Google Photos yet it is working

WebKit Firefox would be exciting

cyredanthem: it's too bad the sandbox feature is from after the latest LTSC and the next release will be in the end of 2021

Don't be another chromium copy team up with your ally

<Arhu "Firefox by default has a shitloa"> I think there's still some telemetry even if you turn it off, supposedly

Arhu: yes that's true

matic_nick: that's true

Enterprise had everything you want but comes with bloat

Firefox even has Google telemetry you can't turn off

renor: well i needed google photos

im guessing its related to a gallery provider

i had gallery disabled for leafpic

and then when i re-enabled gallery, it still didnt work

Can you remove stuff from a Windows ISO?

Could be, I'm using system default gallery

Modified enterprise would be awesome

so my guess is that leafpic does not have a proper gallery implementation.

anyways, stock gallery is really shit

i'll just use google photos for now

Windows 10 custom hardening settings are the bomb.

thank you friends who told me about that stub api implementation

cyredanthem: FF has Google telemetry you can't turn off with user.js?

Windows let's you control everything it's awesome

microsoft actually decided to listen to customers

You can in there

<cyredanthem[m] "Windows let's you control everyt"> It's very exposed to user which is nice

> microsoft actually decided to listen to customers

Windows 10 is so appealing now and looks excellent as always

I haven't done intensive research into the current Windows situation yet but I still get creeped out on Windows 10's constant home-phoning like every hour it does some random dns related to telemetry, even when the device is on standby

Every OS has some connections home

Windows isn't that bad it's very honest about how much info is given away checking for updates and considers that basic telemetry when the others don't

Windows 10 might be the most honest about privacy

<cyredanthem[m] "Some old things should just die"> Webkit/blink are also pretty old

I'm using this gcam moded version, and has some more interesting options

It's unfortunate that they're basing Spectrum OS on Linux (for now) instead of ChromiumOS, since they eventually want to use crosvm. An ungoogled ChromiumOS would be awesome, and a ChromiumOS based Qubes clone would be god tier

Gecko is old since it never adapted

Honestly shouldn't base anything on Linux right now

If I made an OS I would likely take Darwin and port waycool to it build a sandboxing/mac system from the ground up and add a Linux binary compatibility layer

lol why darwin?

why not build on top of seL4

<cyredanthem[m] "Every OS has some connections ho"> It's worse when actively using it though.

i wonder if you can port services that come with the Mach kernel to run as userspace OS services on top of seL4

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): seL4 for a desktop?

ChromiumOS is probably lower hanging fruit because the crosvm and wayland stuff is already there, an maybe easier to eventually move to Zircon/Fuchsia

assuming those services are implemented securely

I would run Darwin until Zircon was ready

cyredanthem[m]: yeah

it can run on x86

Yes, I am sure seL4 could be an option. I'm not sure about hardware compatibility though. It's an issue with both though

That's why Linux is so popular

Why is it that there are no serious projects based on ChromiumOS? Darwin I can understand, but for now ChromiumOS seems like the most functional solid base

ChromiumOS is not as secure as ChromeOS since no verified boto

And it's very limited

GrapheneOS probably wouldn't exist without devices with custom verified boot keys(thankfully there will always be Qualcomm reference devices)

Limited in which way? You'd run everything in a crosvm anyway

That's not a good idea for the reasons @renlord:matrix.org and I highlighted

It defeats the purpose

Google Pixelbooks don't support a similar thing?

seL4 as a hypervisor for Qubes would be interesting running Windows 10 as guests?

> Google Pixelbooks don't support a similar thing?

No Google doesn't like it

Qualcomm supports it and Google leaves the bootloader stock

Google has no interest in custom verified boot is my take

Which means Pixels might drop it when they go custom chips

It seems trivial for them to disable it for Pixel phones

lol, they are long way from custom chip

many hardware people left

<cyredanthem[m] "Which means Pixels might drop it"> Arhu: that's not the ethos

They want to go stock

Qualcomm is stock

Pixels are the Android experience

All in all

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): thankfully

In this one instance

I don't follow. If they don't like custom verified boot, it's super easy for them to disable it on their Pixel phones. You're staying they just don't do that because it's not stock Qualcomm? Their Titan M chip isn't - that's already a divergence from Qualcomm

If they liked it they would add it to Pixelbooks

my guess is that they probably wotn bend over backwards just to support custom verified boot

but if its along the way, sure.

That's probably most accurate

They obviously are a fan of GrapheneOS so who knows

Is KeePass still the only sane Password Manager?

Talking about custom chips, how much does it benefit mac users in the future?

> Talking about custom chips, how much does it benefit mac users in the future?

For security and trust? A lot

Hopefully some other vendor would make a phone with hardware so identical to the pixels it can run AOSP with minimal modifications. I really don't understand why they make it so difficult for themselves with keeping up with the Android implementation for their phone, and they always push non-stock shit that nobody wants. They're making their money from selling devices, no?

matic_nick[m]: cyredanthem[m]: you also have to trust apple completely

that they do correct things at the HW and SW level

renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org): which is better than trusting a bunch of hardware companies competely

cyredanthem[m]: i dont necessarily agree with that

I have to trust Google, Qualcomm, and GrapheneOS on my phone. An iPhone is pretty much just Apple unless I'm missing something

With most iPhones you're trusting Qualcomm or Intel too

cyredanthem[m]: at least google/qualcomm/grapheneos develops software independently and check/validate correctness when interfacing with each other

That's very true renlord (@freenode_renlord:matrix.org) they keep each other in line as they all care a lot

who knows if apple internal politics can get in the way of doing things correctly?

the problem here is that tehre is no public accountability

That's true iPhone is placing a lot of trust in one party

and hobbyist researchers need to bendover backwards to scrutinise apple devices.

Which is better than trusting 12 random parties all making sketchy drivers and firmware on an old laptop, but lot different than GrapheneOS trust wise

I don't think the other companies can keep Qualcomm from putting a vulnerability or backdoor in their baseband chips

Apple and Google are the only ones with sane trust models

Imo

Does the Apple T2 chip offer security advantage for running Windows? You don't have to lower the security settings to install Windows with BootCamp

> Does the Apple T2 chip offer security advantage for running Windows? You don't have to lower the security settings to install Windows with BootCamp

No Windows 10 is not designed for it

It's much like ChromiumOS can actually do some decent verification with Secure Boot alone, but it's useless on Windows and Linux. It's bad on ChromiumOS too, but still

Windows and Linux aren't designed for immutability

link? @cyredanthem:synapse.travnewmatic.com

@analogpathy:synapse.travnewmatic.com: help me out here I lost the link

oop

<cyredanthem[m] "@analogpathy:synapse.travnewmati"> For?

I'm asking for the secure boot stuff

Yes, I can't find it again but you and dong mentioned it

I can just look back in the group

After the update, in Pixel 3a, some apps give a warning about maybe not working and contact the developer: Messages and Conversations in my case. But the apps works great anyway 🙂

After the update, in Pixel 3a, some apps give a warning about maybe not working and contact the developer: Messages and Conversations in my case. But the apps work great anyway 🙂

cg_droid: I'll check it out

cyredanthem[m], once you start these apps I'm not receiving again that message

I've tested both apps and they work ok

cyredanthem[m], thanks

I couldn't see anything testing

cg_droid: anytime good find though

cyredanthem[m], with Pixel 3a?

Yes

Messages is the defafult app, and I don't know if you use xmpp or Conversations

Can anyone please explain what does "sensor" app permission do? Thanks!

The rest of the apps I can't see this warning

cyredanthem[m], but no problem as I said: they both work ok

> Can anyone please explain what does "sensor" app permission do? Thanks!

@cn3m:privacytools.io

I got that warning as well when i open the message app

sensor permissions can be used to listen to crude audio recordings, they can determine age and gender, they have even been somewhat linked to location, they were also used to steal lockscreen passwords(now impossible)

they can be a little scary

Connie[m]1, it's only that time, not anymore when I reopen it

👍

Wow thanks. So basically I should keep it "deny" for all apps?

> Connie 之蛙, it's only that time, not anymore when I reopen it

Yes same for me

Probably not a bad idea Connie 之蛙

Thanks alot 🙏🏻

cn3m[m], which apps do you allow in Sensors?, in my case Telephone, my camera app, Gestual Navigation Bar, GOS launcher and system layout

@conniesfrog:matrix.org I dunno it can make you stand out more browsing iirc

it's complicated I could write a book on it

I don't know if they are even necessary or not...

<cg_droid "cn3m, which apps do you allow in"> none of those need it

I just allow for all the default app

I don't care enough to turn it off

cn3m[m], oh thanks!, So what's the point in that permission?

would turning that off affect navigation

I thought that maybe Camera and Telephone need some sensor

<cg_droid "cn3m, oh thanks!, So what's the "> it's for gyroscope and such

Or gestual navigation..

many things

Can I deny them?

I think daniel did explain on reddit

you can try it

cn3m[m], thanks

I don't see why not

I don't turn sensors off on anything, but I also don't run any untrustworthy apps

I think that the toggle is more useful for apps from google crap store than free alternatives

Me neither but it's something there I can disable if I don't need it, we don't know but could happen

Yes, camera and telephone works ok without Sensor permission, tested

How does Gnu Icecat & Iridium compare to ungoogled chromium in terms of security

<fujita_[m] "How does Gnu Icecat & Iridium co"> GNU Icecat is bad for security

Iridium and Ungoogled are tied, but UC has a better patch history

fujita_[m], thanks, I'll find that post from Daniel about Sensors

any device maintainers working on pixel 4a

<travankor "any device maintainers working o"> doesn't exist yet

well it's "leaked" everywhere :p

doesn't help devs

pixel 4 isn't even supported which is the prereq

really?

4a depends on 4

?

it's a good foundation to work on the 4a from

cn3m: I think 4a would be much easier

they're completely separate devices, except for the name

It has less features

that's wonderful, but not reality

afaik

@freenode_travankor:matrix.org that's not at all true

i'm not super familiar with android dev, so would appreciate some links/info

They share a lot of technical details code wise. I could go into it, but there's a book to write

I mean it's just simple, a series is not that different

you guys think daniel and co will skip 4/4a for pixel 5?

it's not impossible

he said people need to step up and add the devices themselves

he doesn't own a Pixel 4 iirc

honestly, i don't like the pixel 4, either

it would be nice the next grapheneos phone to have 5g, but more than happy with what we have right now

Since today (after I got working gcam) grapheneOS became my absolute weapon of choice in the OS department

Bluetooth fixed. Camera fixed. I don't need anything else. Graphene is perfection

It was nice to know that even my banking apps work on grapheneOS, some custom roms with passed safetynet failed

as someone who uses GrapheneOS and iOS side by side (Pixel 3a and iPad Pro) I definitely like both for different reasons

I will prefer GrapheneOS for sure after Android 11

Gcam, fotos and Gboard are only Google products I use and they all work with network settings disabled.

cn3m: Generally or is there something specific in Android 11

* cn3m: Generally or is there something specific in Android 11?

I use to use my spare iPhone 11. Which is now officially a dust collector

<EssentialChaos[m "cn3m: Generally or is there some"> Security hardening

@essentialchaos:tchncs.de so I worked in adtech and I broke Android and tried to break iOS for a living

the 3rd party privacy is huge for me

Android 11 is finally catching up

GrapheneOS has always done things much better than Android normally

it's all about the privacy this release

Android: it's all about the privacy this release

Xiaomi: yeah, might skip this one

Google Apps totally wreck anything good about Android 11 privacy, but on degoogled OSs it's very close to iOS.

iOS still does a lot of things in a more sane way for 3rd party privacy, but first party privacy is better on AOSP. You have settings to change on iOS to get there

first party as in what apple collects from you

@freenode_travankor:matrix.org yes

in all fairness they collect less than Firefox ha

heh

however Android is getting very competitive on privacy when normally I consider it to be a freedom choice

my last straw with firefox was when they started shipping ad-bait/shitty ads on startup

@freenode_travankor:matrix.org yes it sucks now it's unexcusable

Sounds like all my learning about using Firefox privately is turning out to be a waste of time :D

Is Firefox frowned on now?

100%

it's a sham

shit

'thanks' :D

in case it makes a diff, i am only talkin about firefox

* in case it makes a diff, i am only talkin about desktop browser

Firefox sucks on all platforms

Windows you can tweak and use testing features to do okay..

it's still bad

no windows here. only mac. so i should be looking to change. christ, that wont be fun. :D

will add another post it note to my desk!

macOS is solid

is it possible to use Chromium (if that's the alternative you recommend) with extensions to block trackers and stuff like in Firefox? I use quite a few, plus first party isolation in configs. is that sort of thing possible with Chromium?

Firefox sucks on it

I mean yeah Chromium can be comparable for privacy

macOS is a privacy nightmare too when you get into it, which I stupidly did recently. monitoring all connections. Icloud bull shit turned off, still making connections constantly, days of learning what i can block without screwing up normal operation. ok, Windows is an abomination by comparison, but I despise Apple equally these days, having been something of a devotee for many years now. I just don't have the knowledge

to take on a full move to Linux, but its coming

did you check it with MITM?

I had one for work

check what with what?

as long as diagnostics were off it was always update checking or checking the time or something

<yekip[m] "check what with what?"> man in the middle

decrypt the packets

i know thats what MITM means, but dont know what you mean by your question

number of connections isn't the issue, content is

yeah i am not up to packet inspection at this point

i use litle snitch

so i just get to see what is dialling to where, and when.

oh that's not super helpful for that, but talk to cyre

i am aggressive in blocking, then unblock when absoluely necessary

he's the Mac privacy guy

Linux is privacy without security, so it's like no privacy

oh he's a guy?

i thought there were quite a few men in the middle :D

no doubt some ladies too :D

<cg_droid "Linux is privacy without securit"> agreed, but at this point i would sooner learn that, that learn how to fight with the bastards who sold me this machine, for my own privacy. facial analysis of all my photos, automatically, without consent, and without (as far as I can tell) ANY way to turn the damn thing OFF. Thats one of about 100 serious gripes i have

macOS is the most privacy friendly consumer OS

deliberate blocking/obfuscation of VPN usage with many Apple apps... the list goes on and one

* deliberate blocking/obfuscation of VPN usage with many Apple apps... the list goes on and on

@yekip:privacytools.io a lot of what you are talking about is local processing

yekip[m], you won't find a perfect operative system in this world

facial recognitions and everything is all local

<cn3m[m] "macOS is the most privacy friend"> that's just comparative. I agree. But it's far from BEING a privacy friendly OS.

<cn3m[m] "facial recognitions and everythi"> so "they" say

then I see a shit load of connections out

and not the point. I don't want facial fucking proicessing, local or remote. I do not want it!

but can't seem to stop it

so I am moving away from things like iTunes, Photos app, obviously Facetime etc

you can verify they do stuff offline

i know

MITM

yekip[m]: sounds a lot like "the grass is greener on the other side"

<travankor "yekip: sounds a lot like "the gr"> dont understand that

which side?

i am on Mac. I am staying on Mac for foreseeable future, as I am stuck with it for now. But locking it down as much as possibhle is something I am doing, and not without a fight from Apple in many ways

how do I find this MITM?

Wireshark is the easiest way talk to analog and thedong69 in spite chT

yekip[m]: i mean mac is not necessarily worse than windows/linux

I'm an mitmproxy guy whcih is a little harder

cg_droid: the warning added with the latest update. Its because the app uses a target apk earlier than 28.

@yekip:privacytools.io yeah Mac was awesome when I used it

nothing violated my privacy at all

great security model

Apps having a target SDK of 28 or higher adds significant security benefits

Real privacy doesn't exist, you can avoid some ads from websites and not being tracked a lot, nothing more.

though I get the not liking the local processing

the root of trust on the web is toast

cg_droid: Pix Art Messenger, which is a fork of conversations targets SDK 29

<travankor "yekip: i mean mac is not necessa"> It beats Windows for privacy, by a country mile. It beats Linux for security, by a country mile. That's why I am on it. But learning to improve my privacy by blocking Apple's bull shit, is an improvement process, ongoing

@yekip:privacytools.io turn off diagnostics and iCloud

that's all you need

you're done

I can definitely confirm everything else is innocent

i don't think you can

"block apple"

walled garden, et al

Can you guys imagene running this with graphene

Once desktop mode becomes more mature

<cn3m[m] " @yekip:privacytools.io yeah Mac"> That's the point really. IT has always been nothing short of awesome in my view, UNTIL more recently. Rapidly going downhill as they need to keep shareholders happy and this means monetising things they never needed to before. like upsells and traps and shit. Just pisses me off. But yes, its the the best overall choice STILL. But its going downhill fast for me. Said as someone

who works with them 7 days a week for like 15+ years.

<blacklight447[m] "Can you guys imagene running thi"> its possible

@yekip:privacytools.io yeah don't let perfect be the enemy of good

you're doing way better than me and most of us

<cn3m[m] "its possible"> I assume we cannot use desktop mode on graphene as of now

@blacklight447:privacytools.io There's an app I haven't tried it though

<cn3m[m] "I can definitely confirm everyth"> Sorry, I can't agree there. Maybe in the past. I have been watching connections and doing all sorts of shit for weeks now as I am setting up an entire new office basically. From scratch. Fresh OS, no migration of user accounts of data, everything set up manually. I have lost count of the smelly things I have found. But it depends what bothers you, which may be different to

what bothers me. For instance, i doubt it bothers you that your photos are facially analysed, if kept local. It bothers me though. I have turned off icloud and diags, but it still conects to a shit ton of servers related to icloud, it still tries to use icloud in some apps even though icloud is turned off.... its not quite as simple as you say there. I wish it was, but expeirence has shown me it isn't.

<travankor "walled garden, et al"> zactly

the contents the communications aren't holding your private data

that's all I'm saying it's not going home

<cn3m[m] " @blacklight447:privacytools.io "> Well i know there are some apps for it, but id rather use something thats part of the OS itself

where do i find this MITM privacy guy you mentioned?

yekip[m]: yeah, apple is not great for 1st party privacy, but that's inherent to the walled garden model

@yekip:privacytools.io he's in spite cyredanthem ping him I guess

<travankor "yekip: yeah, apple is not great "> it's 10-50x better than Google

which isn't necessarily saying much

totally. but I wouldn't touch google with my worst enemies hands :D

<cn3m[m] " @yekip:privacytools.io he's in "> thanks, thats cool to know

the study on just web browsing literally found 50 apple users give off as much data as 1 Google user

that's insane

@yekip:privacytools.io he's a MacOS/GrapheneOS guy

wow. sounds like someone i need to get to know! I am on both

@yekip:privacytools.io ha

> @yekip:privacytools.io he's a MacOS/GrapheneOS guy

Oof my twin

haha

i have a linux laptop. for one reason. installing Graphene! Didn't dare try on Mac!

Haha why not?

Mine installed my GrapheneOS

well i had guidance from linux users, so it was easier to install linux on an old machine, than try to convert instructions from linux peiople into mac instructions, considering i am a dumb fuck on both when it comes to CLI stuff

gotta shoot here. but if you're up on MacOS (security and privacy) then I may have to nudge you with a few questions some time (in Spite)

yekip: yeah sure

Spite or dm

I'm open yekip

Huh, apparently we have the force desktop mode option in developer options

Sadly i have no usb c to hdmi or display cable, so i cannot test it out :/

you need to do wireless iirc

blacklight447: freeform windows crash I'm sure this wouldn't work

How so?

Try it

GrapheneOS bug

Can apps communicate with each other on AOSP? I mean, can (say) a malicious app without the network permission use another installed app to get to the internet? Or can a malicious app get any internal files if it has Storage permission?

In my head this doesn't make sense since AOSP has sandboxing between apps, but I was thinking about it and I want to make sure.

Yes it definitely can

renor (@freenode_renor:matrix.org): use profiles

How?

What do you mean?

You're exactly right

<renor "Can apps communicate with each o"> If you grant an app access to storage, then it gets accessed to the shared storage

I mean, a malicious app without network permission can get to the internet through another app?

They can also talk directly and an app with no internet or any permissions can leak to another

For example I have Google Keyboard

It could talk to my Google Camera(I don't have that)

It can then leak

It cannot however reached into apps own private storage

Bur apps need to be from a same "ecosystem" ? Say Google apps

<blacklight447[m] "It cannot however reached into a"> renor (@freenode_renor:matrix.org): no

They don't need to be the same dev

Practically speaking it's more likely

I don't get how this is possible. Where can I find info about this?

See it like this, all apps can store stuff in two ways

renor: I think that's why it's better to use profiles

Their own private storage, and the more public shared storage

Then Network permission makes no sense if it can be bypassed

renor (@freenode_renor:matrix.org): use an app that shows your own list like apktrack, extractor, any store

blacklight447[m]: Ok, I think this is solved with the next API version

> Then Network permission makes no sense if it can be bypassed

That's why there's a huge disclaimer on the site

Everyone needs to read the site

Private storage can ONLY be accesed by the app it belongs to (or you d need to root your phone) the shared storage can be reached, but only with the storage permission

> blacklight447: Ok, I think this is solved with the next API version

We still don't know what that will look like

<renor "blacklight447: Ok, I think this "> You mean with scoped storage?

blacklight447[m]: How can I know what is the shared storage?

> <renor "blacklight447: Ok, I think this "> You mean with scoped storage?

Using next api version the storage permission is being deprecated

cyredanthem[m]: you mean grapheneos site?

<renor "blacklight447: How can I know wh"> If you can see it in your file explorer, then its shared storage

Yes

Read grapheneos.org in it's entirely

I did, but I didn't read anything about this

Now I'm trying to find it

Usage guide or FAQ

Can't remember

Never mind he doesn't mention bypasses

GrapheneOS adds a user-facing Network permission toggle providing a robust way to deny both direct and indirect network access to applications. It builds upon the standard non-user-facing INTERNET permission, so it's already fully adopted by the app ecosystem. Revoking the permission denies indirect access via OS components and apps enforcing the INTERNET permission, such as DownloadManager. Direct acces

s is denied by blocking low-level network socket access.

I think it's the other way around and it has mitigations to avoid what you were mentioning

There's gotta be a way to test

Yeah it doesn't break intents

The firewall is bypassable

Shove it in a profile if you want the firewall to work

there is a script that disables intents, "disablefucksercives" it would be nice that graphene could do something like that

renor: theres the possibility that some apps, that arent well written can leak info to other apps. The tightening in the app sandbox for apps that have a target apk of 28 or higher closes this leak.

Thats from their own private storage.

Not shared storage.

There are various ways apps can communicate with each other

About storage

dazinism, reading what renor posted maybe it's not possible, is it?. Or you mean that other apps could leak to internet some information from an app that hasn't enabled the Network permission?

How can something be leaked if I have Gboard Gcam and Fotos app. All are with network disabled

Unfortunately its possible for apps with network permission to leak info to network from apps without network permission

are you sure about this?

dazinism, :-o

I don't think it's possible for Android 10 not to mention 11

* I don't think it's possible for Android 10 let alone 11

Is it going to be an enormous operation to get GrapheneOS at Android 11?

It depends on apps with network permission checking to see if other apps have network permission before they handle an request to do something over network

Arhu: its always quite a lot of work, yes

The monthly security update has always been delayed by some days/weeks porting to the new android version

dazinism, is it because what it's posted in the link you sent?: apps with shared storage and also apps targeting SDK 28 or later?

dazinism, is it because what it's posted in the link you sent?: apps with shared storage and also apps NOT targeting SDK 28 or later?

Ideally a lot more people, with the necessary skills, would be on hand to help with this work.

cg_droid: the network thing? Its just that any app with network can use the network. Also any app can communicate with any other app.

Its up to the app with network permission to do things correctly

dazinism, and then what about isolation in the apps?, is it a different thing?

Ideally they check to see if the other app has network before performing a network operation for that app

SO, it's allowed the communication between apps...

And what if it hasn't Network permission?

An app without network can not directly connect to the internet, only via another app that lets it do so.

And it's possible then...

There's a notable example of this that strcat has given in the past

This is terrible!

Not sure if it still is possible

I mean. I hope it will be solved in android 11

Ok thanks dazinism

chromium (possibly vanadium? ) will perform a http get request for another app on request, without checking if that app had network permission

I think the way this works(or worked, if it is no longer possible)

Ok

An app sends an intent to chromium/vanadium

Then chromium becomes the forground/ focused app and opens the url

The URL could be some_spy_site/some_very_long_string_with_your_private_data

So you would see if this had happened

So, as apps can communicate with other apps, that app can send that intent to Chromium

<dazinism "I think the way this works(or wo"> This is possible. Inside gcam settings if I tap Help, Vanadium opens Google's website

I was looking at the services/broadcast receivers in vanadium trying to figure out which would allow this

In that link you posted there are some interesting tools/apps, but I think Net Monitor doesn't work anymore in Android 10

cg_droid: no it doesnt work on 10

I'll test the others, thanks

So, Network permission is not something like God-network in GOS

I didn't know about this... scared

josh.man: wonder if intent intercept app allows you to see/block that intent?

cg_droid: the network toggle does not give a complete defense, but it can help a lot.

dazinism, I see

dazinism, maybe many people (like me) thought it was a complete defense avoiding internet communication

Guess nothing is a complete defense. strcat has been clear in the past that it is possible for apps to work around it.

I think pretty unlikely though

To my knowledge no other AOSP forks have network permission as a dangerous (means it had a toggle) permission

Think Lineage has/had a way to block network connections for apps but it worked in a different way.

ok

cg_droid: you should read what I've written about it

the Network permission disallows the app from connecting to the network or using APIs requiring the INTERNET permission

cg_droid: you understand apps within a profile can mutually consent to communication?

cg_droid: if you give Contacts permission to an app, it can decide to give the information to another app within the profile, send it over the network, or whatever - you get that right?

an app can choose to take a permission and expose an API based on it and it is the responsibility of the app you gave the permission to enforce the rules for it

you are trusting the app with the permission - it can do whatever it wants with it

browsers require the INTERNET (Network) permission

they CHOOSE to expose the ability to open URLs (HTTP GET requests) to other apps and they don't do the permission check

this is going to be addressed in Vanadium - we can't do anything about third party browsers / apps though

this applies in general, it should not be a surprise

strcat: thanks for the update, and best wishes for yesterday.

there is an issue open for implementing this feature for Vanadium - feel free to work on it

everything has been clearly explained / documented I think

it is as simple as the fact that apps within a profile can communicate with mutual consent

if you trust an app with a permission, you trust it not to expose it to other apps without enforcing the permission check - that is part of trusting an app with a permission

think about the fact that apps can communicate (with mutual consent)

that is part of the fundamentals of how things work

so much stuff you rely on depends on that

and this is one of the reasons profiles are useful - apps cannot share data or communicate between them

API 28+ apps can't share data aside from via stuff they are granted by the user, but they can communicate (within a profile)

I think this is clearly documented - I don't understand the confusion

there is a feature open about implementing a toggle for disallowing apps to communicate with non-system apps - that would be a new feature

strcat[m], thanks a lot for your answer!

cg_droid: basically apps (including Chromium) are not doing their part in enforcing INTERNET

we can fix this in Vanadium

in general, apps can screw up and not do proper permission checks

cg_droid: an example is that camera apps expose intents for other apps to take pictures through them - and of course they require the user to actually choose to take a picture, they don't allow the app to take a picture without consent

cg_droid: but a camera app could fuck this up and expose a way to automatically take the picture while forgetting to check the CAMERA permission

this could be fixed through the link opener app selection dialogue too.

you can set defaults, but I imagine it still goes through the system where it checks for the default, so it'd be one more check for the permission.

camera apps have had problems like this before

strcat what the difference between sharing data and communicating for apk28+? Open for any app to grab vs. A direct communication?

dazinism: for API 28+ apps can only communicate via intents

they can't do anything like chmod 777 their data directories / files or whatever to share them anymore

they can ONLY communicate via intents (or side channels, w/e)

All non 'approved' IPC is blocked effectively?

dazinism: or stuff you grant them access to ofc (like giving 2 apps access to the same directory, or contacts, or w/e)

dazinism: yes

dazinism: IPC has to go through the OS and it has the ability to filter / monitor it

strcat[m], interesting, I didn't know 🙂

so we can implement a toggle to disallow apps to communicate with each other or whatever now

since it all has to go through the intent handling stuff

so we are in control of it

before they had ways of communicating without going through that

API 28+ addresses that by using a unique security domain for every app instance

strcat: so it blocks all what I've listed as 'other IPC' here? hub.libranet.de/wiki/and-priv-sec/wiki/inter-app-comms

before: every app has a per-profile-per-app uid/gid and runs in untrusted_app with a per-profile MLS level

In my ignorance I thought there were no communication between apps :(

every app has a per-profile-per-app uid/gid and runs in untrusted_app with a per-profile-er-app MLS level

* every app has a per-profile-per-app uid/gid and runs in untrusted_app with a per-profile-per-app MLS level

cg_droid: how would stuff like sharing and so on work

cg_droid: apps providing services to each other

there's a ton of functionality that uses this which you regularly use

That's true...

there would be real usability issues with implementing the option of restrictions - still worthwhile

but you lose functionality or have to deal with a lot of prompts, etc.

cdesai : its possible for an intent to be aimed at a particular app though, which would stop that working?

Yes, I imagine

and if we do have the option to enable prompts for each intent then you definitely need some way to whitelist permanently or it breaks doing anything where the user didn't trigger the action

dazinism: yes

dazinism: I should've said one of the ways. It'd be a lot more generic than doing it for just vanadium then

dazinism: the chooser is only when there is ambiguity

strcat[m], so that's why profiles help a lot, I guess

strcat[m]: it must be checking the system for defaults too though

yes but you can communicate with a specific app ofc

with intents

and you can signature check

this is how the security model for IPC works

apps often signature check what they are sending to

or receiving from

instead of just allowing anything to fulfill it they can require a specific app id and/or signature

and they can do permission checks

apps can also invent their own permissions for this stuff

you can invent your own runtime permission for a capability your app exposes

instead of just exposing it to everything

apps decide who is allowed to communicate with them - app ids, signatures, permissions

Android 11 is making it so that IPC APIs need to be more explicitly exported though

we can do w/e we want in terms of making a UI to control communication betweeen apps

just bear in mind it'd be extremely annoying / unusable if you actually had to authorize each thing

and it'd be pretty confusing to users if it didn't have an exception for system components

strcat just to confirm, the conversation got a bit hectic, apk28+ blocks all the stuff I'd listed as 'other IPC'. Other than guess can still share data through storage that both apps have been granted access to by user

so I think it should only apply to communication between third party apps

dazinism: yes and stuff like contacts could be considered storage in that regard

but you need to grant them both access

or grant both access to same file, etc.

for first party apps like Vanadium we can just add the permission checks we want

like requiring Network to open URLs automatically rather than giving a prompt to the user

for other apps we can make a system for users to control it

i..e. communication *between * third party apps

That is a nice improvement then. Time to dump all those lagging apps. Was surprised conversations is still on an old target, thought the dev was pretty on the case.....

Also time for me to update that IPC page

Great lesson here...

Thanks a lot

<strcat[m] "so I think it should only apply "> Wouldn't it be better to have 2 toggles to reduce attack surface? One for third party apps. One for third party apps and system components.

Does Work profile act as user profiles?

renor: kind of

renor: work profiles are owned by a profile owner app

as opposed to your profile which normally you own

you don't own the work profile - the app you use to manage it does

it sets it up how it wants

it can choose if apps inside it can communicate with apps outside it

normally... they wouldn't be able to, but this is up to the app managing it to decide

work profiles are for enterprise device management

so a device management app runs them

they are not intended as a way for users to divide things up

that's why there can only be one per profile and why it works the way it does

the OS implements it but an app is granted control over it by the user

renor: there are apps for managing your own work profile - it's just kinda weird, and not how it's intended to be used

useful? sure, weird tho

Any recomendation for an app to manage it?

I think you should mostly use user profiles since you aren't limited to just 1 and don'

* I think you should mostly use user profiles since you aren't limited to just 1 and don't need to rely on a third party app

Ok, thanks

Does this guy never give up?

3 accounts he's used now

Ridiculous

Oh, here we go again

ok well fair game to post personal info about Mozilla employees and direct the same hatred towards them when they provide a platform for this

and talk about their dishonest / manipulative behavior

they chose to support this, give cover to it and give platforms for it

Sounds already like a coordinate attack...

it is one

it's a coordinated misinformation and harassment campaign coordinated by Mozilla

I receive dozens of inappropriate emails / messages from the people they direct towards me with this every day

and they doxxed me and are sharing my address

and look at how they provide a platform to do this

Do you've evidence it's Mozilla doing this specifically or not just some guy?

strcat[m]: Do you know if Google apps like Gcam respect the permissions between apps? How can one know if an app is respecting them?

madaidan.: you can see Mozilla employees are active there, supporting and giving cover to it

they allow and support posting misinformation / character assassination, etc.

you can see what they say in their IRC channel

they are fully involved in it and enabling it to happen

<strcat[m] "madaidan.: you can see Mozilla e"> Sure, I can see that but that doesn't mean they're actually the ones doing this

they are the ones giving a platform for it and the cover it needs to continue

<strcat[m] "you can see what they say in the"> Any logs somewhere?

madaidan.: providing a platform for it, supporting it and giving cover to it

makes them the ones doing it

it wouldn't be much of a problem if it was just some lone lunatic harassing me and trying to post misinformation

but they are supporting it and are involved in the threads

they make sure not to refute all this misinformation being posted and they are 100% okay with the character assassination / harassment

they are fully complicit with it

it would not be able to happen without their involvement

so those Mozilla security engineers and other employees are involved and responsible for this

and it should be remembered this stuff started with them

they were originally the ones doing it - I don't care if it has now become other people doing it on their behalf with their support / cover

doesn't change much

madaidan.: this was their way of operating back when I was involved in Rust, doesn't change much for it to now be people they support doing it instead of themselves

madaidan.: and again they are doing ALL this because I have posted a factual, accurate paragraph describing the state of their mobile browser as part of GrapheneOS documentation

madaidan.: can see there Mozilla employees, etc. are involved

and people they work with

100% on them

and will be a serious response from me to this

I will defend myself from them including listing the people doing it and similar information as what they share about me which they use to harass me

madaidan.: they are fully capable of just not providing a platform to harass me or countering what's happening and de-escalating it, I haven't done anything beyond posting a paragraph of technical information, the only thing I could do to stop being harassed is stop doing my technical work / documentation

what exactly am I supposed to do? not defend myself and let them spread false claims / attacks on me with no one contesting it? is that de-escalating?

I could blacklist their app ids / app signatures and just stop working around the incompatibilities or needing to think about it as part of my work

remove the info about it

madaidan.: anyway fun way to spend a birthday, being harassed by Mozilla people all day

I already responded there aswell to point out that its a brand new account

blacklight447: need a lot more than that

and also they locked the previous thread but kept it up so I can't refute all the shit people said about me there

they are actively helping them

you can see what that moderator did too

Reported the account as well

giving cover for it and legitimizing it

and he's involved with Mozilla

<strcat[m] "blacklight447: need a lot more t"> I am aware

blacklight447: it won't accomplish anything, they will keep harassing me across platforms with sockpuppets and spreading misinformation

Mozilla is going to keep doing this just like they did to me before

I had to retire from involvement in the project, remove my own commit access and pretty much never speak of it again to avoid this

blacklight447: what have I even done

<strcat[m] "blacklight447: it won't accompli"> Luckly atleast im in a spot where my reddit account has more credibility behind it

Especially when compared to a 1day old account

blacklight447: grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing

this is what they have a problem with

Sheesh

blacklight447: anyway really shows a lot about the lack of ethics, empathy and honesty of Mozilla employees including their security engineers

that they use this kind of tactic

and yes, they are using it, by being involved / aware of it, active in these threads and conversations about it

<strcat[m] "madaidan.: anyway fun way to spe"> That sucks :(

giving it a platform, giving it credibility, giving it cover

Yeah...

it is them doing it

Fuck.

it is irrelevant whether the sockpuppet accounts are actually theirs - it is still a tool being used by them either way

if they don't support it they are free to refute it, stop giving a platform for it, stop giving it cover

saying ohhh this sockpuppet account is not us we swear

doesn't change anything

and they have not said that - and they can't really, because they have a bunch of employees including some who have done stuff like this before

I don't even see any of them disavowing involvement in it / refuting it or anything

when stuff like this happens and people barely do anything to help that also hurts

I am not some robot that's just going to keep doing work on the project while shit like this keeps happening and people don't help

Look at that, our old friend anonymousjoker is here as well

blacklight447: I just need Mozilla to stop giving them a platform for this and to refute misinformation like I do when people make false claims about stuff here

but ofc

they are not going to do that

because this is something they support and are actively participating in and helping

it's how they operate as a culture

<blacklight447[m] "Look at that, our old friend ano"> I loathe that guy

Such a prick

My god.

Can that be evidence to sue them?

Mozilla I mean

Maybe it's the only solution

strcat has too much legal shit already going on to be suing mozilla

ok

Hi all! I've run GrapheneOS on Pixel 4 XL and it works well. You can also try it with my repos github.com/paintedman/device_google_coral, github.com/paintedman/script and github.com/paintedman/android-prepare-vendor

I've also prepared monolithic kernel with patches as like in crosshatch, but I build it separately from OS and I still need to fix something before I will upload it to github. You can use stock kernel with modules from android.googlesource.com/device/google/coral-kernel

:-o

Lmao madaidan. This guy is thick

<blacklight447[m] "Lmao madaidan. This guy is thic"> I realised that a long time ago

It'd be best if everyone just banned him from everywhere

madaidan.: these ppl don't have just 1 account

He always follows me to spread more bullshit

what did I even do to deserve them targeting me like this

I don't even participate outside the GrapheneOS communities except when I'm targeted like this

Facts + dishonest charlatans always results in disasters

pmn369: woah wow!

I don't see any Mozilla employees or anyone else actually disputing the accuracy of what I say

all they did is pick one tiny thing I said unrelated to the main topic in response to the OP going off on unrelated tangents

strcat cripes man... I don't know. It's like some of these people have this religion built up, just crazy.

and argue about that because it's more subjective

and I don't know why they are pretending webRequest extensions are fail safe when they're not

it's clearly not

pkill the extension with SIGKILL/SIGSEGV yourself

see what happens

I've had mozilla employees call my claims FUD before but their only argument was "we're working on it"

super easy to test and confirm that what I said is true

madaidan.: they're a company with a culture of dishonesty and spreading misinformation

people working there are influenced by the culture

look at how they talk about these things

always weasel words, misrepresenting things, never just having an open / accurate discussion

very careful to not refute misinformation that is supporting them

Yeah, I've seen that

but they'll jump in to try to argue against some minor thing I say - they failed to find anything I said wrong though, they just didn't understand what I was talking about with addons not being fail safe

but as I said

easy to confirm for yourself

pkill it with SIGKILL (like OOM) or SIGSEGV (like some crash)

see what happens

does all content start being paused / blocked? no

it allows everything

it's not a fail safe API

and that is the ONLY thing anyone even tried to contest other than just posting misinformation

Even J telegram was on whonix the other day

Couldnt answer a simole question

Simple*

looks like that issue is not fixed and may be worse in some ways than before?

valldrac: I might need to revert this and do a new release

I might not be able to merge further changes on it until they're heavily tested

not just by 1 person

I tried leaving it in beta for 2 days but no one said anything was wrong

strcat[m]: sorry about that, we failed to proper test the fix :/

<shortcastle[m] "Couldnt answer a simole question"> He usually dodges stuff

anyway just spent my birthday not doing much aside from reading hateful emails and dealing with ongoing harassment

and trying to work on the project without proper support

and that just keeps going

strcat[m]: I only have one bluetooth speakers to test

valldrac: I don't have anything to test other than beacons

I can't test audio

<madaidan[m] "He usually dodges stuff"> There was long exchange of comments

Even The moderator complained in the morning

strcat[m]: there are three types of A2DP bluetooth devices AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_BLUETOOTH_A2DP{,_HEADPHONES,_SPEAKER} and imposing a specific order could break the others? it works for my speakers, but can be wrong for other devices

strcat[m]: anyway, revert it and I'll look at it again when I get free time

strcat[m]: sorry for the broken releases

valldrac: but the current order is random?

if I revert it?

did you verify the order is random?

I don't know what to do about it.

yes, the order is random with malloc_hardeneded. The issue is that I don't know the expected order. I assume the current one checking other log dumps and my setup, but it's wrong

I have to check how the available device list is initialized in the first place

valldrac: maybe the order it initializes them

valldrac: that is the order it would *usually* have

valldrac: so maybe put some counter or something and sort by that

valldrac: try to match the existing order it'd have - usually with jemalloc assuming it's in a new size class

the order would be the order they are allocated

lowest address first

It can also happen the current order is correct, but that there's a parameter (supported encoding or something like that) that is initialized for AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_BLUETOOTH_A2DP_HEADPHONES or AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_BLUETOOTH_A2DP_SPEAKER, instead of AUDIO_DEVICE_OUT_BLUETOOTH_A2DP (which is the top device in the list)

valldrac: the current order may not match the order they're initialized tho

maybe you made the first one correct but the other two are out of order

valldrac: should check what the order is WITHOUT hardened_mallo

and make sure you matched that

just make it like it normally is

and then it shouldn't make things worse only better

because it was random before

strcat[m]: yes, that's my idea

strcat[m]: what are you going to do? I don't have time right now until next week

valldrac: probably leave it as is

strcat[m]: ok, I'll try to fix it ASAP

since I can't see how random would be better other than being able to keep rebooting to get different orders

at least some things work consistently now

and if it breaks stuff it should break consistently hopefully

or MORE consistently at least

valldrac: they said rebooting made it work btw

valldrac: maybe it just had to force a reconfiguration

The new thread was just locked then deleted by the user before they deleted their whole account

Weird how the mods locked it just before the user deleted it

madaidan.: they still accomplish their goals

madaidan.: they lock it to prevent posting rebuttals

<madaidan[m] "Weird how the mods locked it jus"> any idea who it is

they are happy with having a thread attacking me / posting misinformation

call them out

I wouldn't be surprised if you see them post and lock immediately

where is the info about your address?

<williamstopus[m] "call them out"> I did. Multiple times.

williamstopus: someone who dislikes me leaked it and now multiple people are sharing that

<madaidan[m] "I did. Multiple times."> meant @strcat

don't want to say where to give it to more people

considering how much harassment is being directed at me

<strcat[m] "williamstopus: someone who disli"> don't you have personal protections from your country?

<strcat[m] "madaidan.: they lock it to prev"> I mostly got the last word in anyway

The timing was weird though

someone involved in Mozilla doxxed you?

I would raise shit about that

<williamstopus[m] "someone involved in Mozilla doxx"> It wasn't Mozilla who leaked it originally

<madaidan[m] "It wasn't Mozilla who leaked it "> who was it?

you can get Google or the website to take it down

strcat seems to have reason to believe they're sharing it though

<madaidan[m] "strcat seems to have reason to b"> we have a big community here who can talk about who did that

<williamstopus[m] "who was it?"> I don't really want to say anything more about it in case it leads someone else to finding it

valldrac: GrapheneOS/os_issue_tracker #217#issuecomment-634116906

madaidan.: b/c ppl are sending me threats with my address

that is dangerous

<strcat[m] "madaidan.: b/c ppl are sending m"> That's fucked

and this bullshit didn't happen ever before

just now recently

maybe it was copperhead?

<williamstopus[m] "maybe it was copperhead?"> They've already did their damage with it before

<madaidan[m] "They've already did their damage"> copperhead leaked strcat address?

copperscam :laugh

* copperscam 🤣

williamstopus: yes

they put my address into the public record which is available online by filling out something on my behalf in a way that is not legal

and they filled out an optional field to include address to leak my address

wow

they might claim they didn't do it on purpose and didn't realize it would be public, or they didn't realize they didn't have to fill it out

but this is what they did

and that is just a BS claim they could make

they needed my permission to do what they did and didn't have it anyway

I don't want to give more details than that to avoid drawing more attention to where they posted my address

williamstopus: they did this as part of making a fraudulent claim, and making a claim that would have required my permission and written consent / contract

which did not exist

posting my address as part of it was just an added spiteful thing to do

as a bonus

it wasn't the main thing they were doing they just happened to include my address on what is essentially a forgery

they made a claim?

falsely claiming to be me authorizing something I never did

with the USG?

williamstopus: they fraudulently claim I gave consent to do something

and they put it in the public record and filled out an optional field putting my address on it

Great. Mods are now abusing the locked post to argue and not give me a chance to reply old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g…tle_farfetched_to/frvr0w0?context=3

so many drama ☹︎

I've actually disputed some of this guy's points before in the other thread but he ignored them old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/g…_insecure_refuted/frgvv7r?context=3

<strcat[m] "williamstopus: they fraudulently"> do you have a lawyer who can take it down?

There's already ongoing legal battles with Copperhead

Wtf is going on. Can i get a short summary? Only read the last posts and couldnt believe

<dlm-johannes[m] "Wtf is going on. Can i get a sho"> mozilla is using 4chan and doxxed strcat and send him legal threats

dlm-johannes: people seriously upset with the advice I give in grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing about Firefox

dlm-johannes Some soyboy who admits to now privacy/security/programming expertise claims Daniel and madaidan are wrong

dlm-johannes: so they are posting across a bunch of communities with tons and tons of misinformation / false claims

* dlm-johannes Some soyboy who admits to ZERO privacy/security/programming expertise claims Daniel and madaidan are wrong

* dlm-johannes Some soyboy who admits to ZERO privacy/security/programming experience claims Daniel and madaidan are wrong

reddit, 4chan, etc.

<ThomCat[m] "dlm-johannes Some soyboy who adm"> what you mean soyboy??

dlm-johannes: Mozilla employees are supporting / helping them and providing a platform for it

* dlm-johannes Some soyboy who admits to ZERO privacy/security/programming experience claims Daniel and madaidan are wrong. Daniel and Madaidan back themselves up with facts.

That's it. That's the thread.

strcat: sorry you dont wanting us to post reddit threads here?

we can go on and defend

I don't want people portraying what's happening inaccurately - posting the thread is fine with context at least

and it's not helpful to go down to their level

I don't want people claiming they have done something they haven't done

I've been careful to only say what they are actually doing

providing a platform for this, supporting it by giving cover and being involved in it in a way that lends it credibility without ever actually responding to what I say, or the misinformation that's posted

<strcat[m] "I've been careful to only say wh"> you said on twitter that mozilla employees are on 4chan

they use the cover of anonymous / sockpuppet accounts

williamstopus: people should refer to what I said for themselves

I don't want ppl to inaccurately paraphrase / summarize what I said

ok

sorry

I said they are supporting it, involved in it, actively using it to harm me / silence me

it is clear that the moderators in that subreddit - many of whom are actively involved with Mozilla - are coordinating with the posts and supporting them

we should start a 4chan thread to take them down

williamstopus: please don't make things worse

is the release on beta?

there is no reason to have any posts about this BS at all on reddit, there is nothing that has happened aside from these people throwing a fit and trying to direct harassment towards me over an accurate paragraph in our docs

Thank you for that information. Why bother about them?

We could also ask Mozilla for comment if they post threats

dlm-johannes: some of them follow me, they are notably silent

they see what I've posted

they are silent and supporting what's happening

<williamstopus[m] "we should start a 4chan thread t"> What

they participating in some tangents about other topics in the thread

without refutting the misinformation or directly answering me

they are perfectly happy to have people use sockpuppets to silence people who write accurate documentation about these things

the moderators are actively coordinating with them / helping them and giving them cover

look in the original thread

<strcat[m] "the moderators are actively coor"> what can we do to help

they are more interesting in stopping me from responding (they removed my initial response and I had to repost it) and trying to find some tiny point in what I said that they can try to go off on

they failed pretty hard at that though

but it is clear what they're doing

and they could claim that it isn't them posting from the sockpuppet accounts - but they are actively supporting it

I don't think it's particularly important who is hiding behind those accounts

what's important is you can see Mozilla supports this, this is the tactics they use

* what's important is you can see Mozilla supports this, these are the tactics they use

strcat: what is the plan to coutner this?

they give the sockpuppet accounts cover (they get involved in the thread, etc. but don't refute all the misinformation - just focus on promoting their product, not keeping discussion accurate or stopping character assassination / false claims)

the sockpuppet accounts give them cover

<williamstopus[m] "what can we do to help"> Counter the bullshit

since it allows attacking people with a bunch of misinformation / false claims

and directing harassment towards them

did anyone get the release on beta updates?

while it not being clear who is doing it

williamstopus: the latest release was pushed out via beta and then stable

have not receiving it yet

should I reboot?

no

Which mozilla.org chatroom?

(I'm not going to start anything, just want the logs myself)

ThomCat: I'm talking about what they are posting on reddit and 4chan - it was discussed in some of the Mozilla irc channels like security

a lot of them are aware of it, some of them follow me on Twitter

what is notable is their lack of involvement aside from talking about it themselves, trying to find ways to counter what I said (and failing), participating in the thread but only on peripheral tangent topics

you can see they are aware and involvement

Right, no I get that, I thought they had entirely shut down their IRC and moved to Matrix? Maybe they are just bridged for now

and that they officially support / endorse spreading misinformation / false claims and using character assassination and targeted attacks on individuals to silence technical discussion

ThomCat: I don't know I guess it's Matrix now

I was just looking at the logs

<strcat[m] "no"> how can I trigger updating?

williamstopus: you don't need to - you can if you want, but you don't have to

it automatically checks for updates and downloads them

williamstopus: grapheneos.org/usage#updates

williamstopus: grapheneos.org/releases#about-the-releases

<strcat[m] "I was just looking at the logs"> What logs?

<strcat[m] "it automatically checks for upda"> should I disabling Tor?

madaidan.: will PM

Can i follow this room on xmpp? I heard it was bridged and i trird to search for it and didnt find it on xmpp?

<strcat[m] "madaidan.: will PM"> share :angel

> <@strcat:matrix.org> madaidan.: will PM

* share :angel:

* share 👼

shortcastle[m], yes: join this channel: #grapheneos%chat.freenode.net⊙ijo

<cg_droid "shortcastle, yes: join this chan"> Thank you

All the words

shortcastle[m], you're welcome

What's the AOSP Alliance?

<hypokeimenon[m] "What's the AOSP Alliance?"> #aospalliance

hellos. After flashing GrapheneOS, the /install# page mentions 'fastboot erase avb_key' before re-flashing stock Android. are there any other steps? Because when I flash the AOSP, I get "Can't find valid operating system" at the device restarts.

AOSP is not the stock OS

the instructions are for flashing GrapheneOS and the extra section just documents one extra thing that needs to be done when moving away from GrapheneOS

the instructions work fine for the official releases of GrapheneOS along with the stock OS

if you're trying to use them for something else and it doesn't work, it is probably not built properly

also it's not really the end of the world if people don't erase the avb key - they can still flash the stock OS and lock it anyway

I just made sure to give complete instructions

to restore it to the factory state without a custom AVB key for the yellow boot state to work

alright. so, nothing else needed. thanks.

altoslos: try Magic Earth app

maybe open streetmaps?

What the hell is happening?

The johnny dude didn't refuse shit

Refute*

What's with the naive assumption that all implementations are equally sane?

It's amazing how full of shit and self righteous that guy is

<altoslos[m] "are either of those on fdroid"> yes

blacklight447: trai proposed the ban hammer on him couple days ago. Did you ever get back to him? :)

<altoslos[m] "but can i get google maps workin"> Well you can try to use it via Aurora store

<altoslos[m] "and has anyone gotten microG to "> This is pornography

lol

<altoslos[m] "i routed a frequent route i have"> Try Magic Earth. Is much better than OSM which looks like we are still in the early 2000s

<altoslos[m] "and has anyone gotten microG to "> Use calyxos instead of GOS if u want to use microg

altoslos: consider just using google maps in the browser

there are some decent apps just not osmand

osmand is overly recommended

I think people who recommend it mostly don't try using it, it sucks

<strcat[m] "I think people who recommend it "> 110%

strcat[m]: Which one would you recommend?

maps.me has some issues but it's actually usable

I would not say I recommend it

altoslos: I'd recommend just running it in Vanadium in incognito

Okay I'll take a look

altoslos: or try maps.me

@altoslos:tchncs.de no notifications right?

Osm sucks big time. Magic earth is the best out of all I have tried. Maps.me is Yandex which is Russian NSA

there was some fork of maps.me trying to strip certain stuff out, etc. but afaik that stalled

I don't think it needs any permissions beyond location in foreground tho

<joshman[m] "Osm sucks big time. Magic earth "> Correction: Yandex is Russian Google, not NSA

Nothing beats google maps though

yandex is funny

I had to make an account with them for webmaster tools access

so I have some yandex email they send mail to in russian

trying to get me to use their wallet or whatever else

😂

it's set to english but they send a ton of stuff in russian

and I click doc links and it's in russian

> so I have some yandex email they send mail to in russian

<EssentialChaos[m "Correction: Yandex is Russian Go"> Russian Google is Russian NSA

I deleted the DNS entries used to verify the site at one point because I don't like the cruft

and I didn't realize they regularly recheck them

so they deleted the webmaster tools access AND in retaliation wiped the page from their search index

weird stuff

I added it back and they added the site back to search index from scratch

like... how the hell does getting unverified for webmaster tools impact the search index

also think they are upset I am not making 'turbo pages'

<thelonewolf[m] "Nothing beats google maps though"> Waze beats it if we speak turn by turn navigation in car. Still Google though

some thing they want sites to do

> so I have some yandex email they send mail to in russian

Imho, that's their biggest mistake: they target only Russian-speaking markets

I will give them credit for not having completely horrible webmaster tools like google's overhauled ones

google ruined their tools

I used to be able to look at which backlinks to the site existed including finding 404 links

and then I could redirect those to the appropriate page

but google broke all their tools in the overhaul - they are now super slow, horrible web 4.0 crap

everything takes ages, the UI sucks, and the info is mostly gone

bing is busy doing the same kind of overhaul - I don't get it

I really miss being able to see who was linking to my sites and fix their broken links

bing and yandex are too bad to find many of the backlinks

google has a massive db of backlinks and won't let me access it anymore

bing thinks there are like 42 links to grapheneos.org on the internet

quality search engine

yandex forgot the site existed at all cause of removing their TXT verify entry lol

super annoying how things want you to put a top-level TXT record

instead of _yandex.grapheneos.org they want you to just put it for grapheneos.org (@)

so you end up with this ever growing top-level TXT record with all these verify things

> yandex forgot the site existed at all cause of removing their TXT verify entry lol

It's privacy-oriented /s

I had to verify facebook too to stop ppl making facebook ads on our behalf

by default ppl can make ads that look like they are from you

unless you verify and disable it

???

"domain protection"

> Domain Verification: Domain verification helps make sure your content isn't misrepresented. By verifying your domains, you claim and control the editing privileges of your content and links.

strcat[m], does something happen if we delete all the apps from Sensos permissions?, I did it and all works fine

it's so dumb that the default is ppl can do stuff on your behalf

anyone

strcat[m], does something happen if we delete all the apps from Sensors permissions?, I did it and all works fine

cg_droid: I mean, they can't access sensor data, that's it

cg_droid: the reason EVERY APP has the toggle is because apps don't have to add a permission to do it in iOS or stock Android

strcat[m], I was wondering if any default app needs it

so GrapheneOS doesn't know which subset of apps need sensors access

there might be zero apps that actually use it in the stock OS - I dunno

<strcat[m] "I had to verify facebook too to "> people selling graphene on facebook?

strcat[m], thanks 🙂

williamstopus: people can post ads on facebook that look like they're from you officially

unless you register your domain with them and enable brand safety

so like they can post some political ad that looks like we posted it or w/e

williamstopus: you know how when you link to a site on twitter, etc. it puts a preview?

basically facebook lets them edit the preview

on our behalf

to make it look like we said something we didn't, etc.

unless you deal with this BS

and give facebook a bunch of info

<strcat[m] "williamstopus: people can post a"> what were they posting?

you supporting trump?

williamstopus: someone posted some weird ad

I dunno what the intent was

I dealt with it now

I had to give facebook a picture of my passport at one point because an account I used elsewhere got locked

okay

and relies on fb for verification

someone looking for keywords to troll maybe

I covered half the info like the issue #

I think verification is automatic

altoslos: did you try maps.me

btw it's from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail.Ru not yandex

it's open source but does have ads, etc. in the normal build but they can be turned off in settings

(maps.me)

the attempted fork lost steam afaict

maps.me doesn't want other people using their servers in a fork so you have to host your own server - which is fine, it's all open source

and unlike Signal no reason to really want to use their server

but makes it more involved than just a client side fork

since you need to host the map data tiles

and other stuff you want to work

Mail.ru isn't much better than Yandex if at all

altoslos: aurora

Store

altoslos: okay. Up to you.

<altoslos[m] "u sure Magic Earth is on fdroid?"> It's not open source so it is not on fdroid

twitter.com/grsecurity/status/1252558055629299712 lol that's pretty bad

lots of worse things tho

just kinda amusing it's not noticed that the kernel is leaking a huge chunk of private kernel data into each coredump

'many eyes'

since 2016

wonder how many obvious remote infoleaks there are happily leaking data in the real world without ppl (even attackers) noticing

🤣

<strcat[m] "twitter.com/grsecurity/s"> There's new ways to defeat KASLR every other day

For a lot of people it's just `cat /proc/kallsyms`

If installed custom fonts on graphene will that have any effect on privacy or local fonts have no impact on that?

<altoslos[m] "i was wrong, osm is actually ama"> No doubt. If we were in 2001

Anyone has knowledge about it?

shortcastle: no not really but fonts are definitely attack surface i.e. the font could be evil somehow

really hard to see how it could be evil other than trying to exploit the font renderer tho

Those disgusting curly fonts are pretty evil imo

Can Mozilla just drop out? I don't see what they are contributing at this point. Apple makes a much stronger argument for privacy and the open web

cn3m: may happen anyway and then Rust can be free of the web browser influence on it

<strcat[m] "really hard to see how it could "> They can exploit my eyes

already fucked it up tho

<strcat[m] "shortcastle: no not really but f"> Worth knowing so no point to mess with it then

I wouldn't be sad if Firefox went away or became Firefox Chromium

cn3m: they currently depend on misleading people about privacy and security to retain usage share to keep the money rolling

usage share is their #1 concern, always

competition is only good if they don't bring down the people doing the hard work down

remember them doing all that fake fretting about DRM

and they added it happily at the same time

Mozilla is actively undermining the proper security and privacy work of Google and Apple

every time

I used to do a lot of volunteer work with them

with FUD and privacy/security theater

I learned how they are from that close proximity and inside look at them

I went to that 2013 or w/e Mozilla Summit

whenever it was - can't recall

and it really gave me a good perspective on their fucked up way of doing things

(invite only thing)

<strcat[m] "cn3m: they currently depend on m"> You have 4 k people on r/graphene if not mistaken if coordinated they can br a force of information

strcat: yes they need that sweet sweet google money and they use it as an excuse to do crazy stuff like this

<strcat[m] "cn3m: they currently depend on m"> BuT tHeY bLoCk TrAcKeRs AnD fInGeRpRiNtErS!1!!!

gleefully giving a presentation on how competing with major companies depends on exploiting volunteer labor and compensating them with stickers, addictive gaming type achievement stuff, and fake feeling of being part of their team

pretty sure that was the fucking keynote?

shortcastle: I am on reddit everyday debunking myths about firefox and lineage

shrug

cn3m: yes i recognise the username,you also on other rooms here aswell

I spend 3-5 of my free time a day, this community needs a lot of work

cn3m: it's a company with extremely highly paid executives and engineers

cn3m: depending on usage share to keep money rolling

shortcastle: ah gotcha, sorry I am sure you weren't targeting me

cn3m: are you from privacytoolsio?

and with this culture of feeling like they are a cannot-do-any-wrong underdog that is the saviour of the internet

strcat: since profit matters more than anything

so this makes anything acceptable as long as it supports themselves

ends justify the means

shortcastle: I operate mainly on there, but I am not a member. I do what I can to help

lying about privacy/security stuff justifies the end goal of increasing usage share because they see themselves as the good side and block out seeing anyone else

strcat: people love a good underdog story

I call them out of their bs like unblockable google analytics and hidden telemtry

shitty differential privacy

usage share extremely important to them since the basis of their revenue is selling eyes to companies like Google

if they are privacy focused why are the searches of their users something they sell to the highest bidder

that is the fundamental basis of the company

security is the least of my concerns with Firefox right now

At least one thing is sure 100% that Micay has succeded he turned the corner and doesnt matter how much missinfo mozilla does his name comes up everywhere

Everywhere you read his name comes up

it's their reputation that gets harmed by this shit really

<strcat[m] "if they are privacy focused why "> well this goes for Apple too.. The system is screwed only browser I remember actually defaulting to a sane search is Vanadium

cn3m: not sure I'd really call duckduckgo sane but yeah

lol

shortcastle: Daniel is doing the hard work of 3 people and doing it well

duckduckgo isn't very good honestly

and they spread misinformation themselves

I don't have much faith in them

he is a community manager, a rom developer, researcher, and server admin

I made a comment on whonix few days back

I would like a better alternative to set than duckduckgo

<strcat[m] "cn3m: not sure I'd really call d"> is there a better option that has any sort of transparency?

And james donaldosn or whatever his name came on chat

I don't really want to set one that just proxies results although that is largely what duckduckgo does anyway

like duckduckgo is just crappier bing

My calls are still going to the phone speakers with Bluetooth a2dp offloading enabled, anyone else have that happen?

algebro: try rebooting, it's not necessarily fixed

algebro: that one specific bug is 'fixed'

but the 'fix' just makes the order static - not necessarily the correct order, and maybe something else being broken is the real cause

Cool, not a big deal, just wasn't sure if that was a known thing

<strcat[m] "I don't really want to set one t"> You could set Ecosia, at least it helps the environment, afaik

algebro: GrapheneOS/platform_frameworks_av 1618789

attempted fix

EssentialChaos: no privacy is far worse

goes straight to bing

Yeah I saw the original patch, I can dig into it later, driving

algebro: may be order is still different

or there may be a similar problem elsewhere

> goes straight to bing

Everything?

algebro: it could be that this doesn't match order it allocates which is prob what it's supposed to be

algebro: dunno

EssentialChaos: enough check their privacy policy

algebro: maybe need to override more than operator< too

it is basically like a pinky promise from Bing to not spy on you

well it does this do_compare override

shrug

<strcat[m] "like duckduckgo is just crappier"> DDG has always been good for me

Unless searching for some very specific thing

it sucks at finding specific things or technical things

and IME it's just a crappier bing

"" + - and the other operators work great for me

> We protect your searches from potential eavesdroppers with a securely encrypted connection. This way we make sure that nobody between you and us can see your searches.

Is Ecosia using https for marketing?

strcat (@strcat:matrix.org): Firefox is so close to fixing the basic issues at least on Windows. Strict CFG can be forced and Fission is getting good. They just don't care

Firefox for Windows just needs some testing and priority and a new media player

CFG isn't like Clang CFI

Or just steal the Chrome one

it's coarse CFI, not type-based CFI

> Or just steal the Chrome one

It's not stealing, it's open-source

Intel CET is almost available for coarse CFI on x86 anyway?

I didn't know that thanks strcat (@strcat:matrix.org)

EssentialChaos: I know I was being facetious

I stand corrected

<strcat[m] "Intel CET is almost available fo"> Isn't CET quite shabby?

cyredanthem: coarse CFI enforces that only functions can be called, and ideally only indirectly callable functions

cyredanthem: Clang CFI enforces that only indirectly callable functions can be called indirectly, and that the type matches

much finer-grained

Strict CFG isn't what I was thinking my bad

usually nothing is done about returns other than linear overflow protection

Android uses ShadowCallStack (for the kernel mostly)

lacks hardware feature to protect the shadow stack atm

protecting returns is actually easier to do well with hardware support

cause you can have a good hardware shadow stack, etc.

and is finer-grained than just enforcing types

it enforces the control flow matches what it should

but in software something can write to the shadow stack using an arbitrary write

so lack of hardware support makes it depend on ASLR, etc.

intel CET is a hardware shadow stack (potential to be really good) + efficient coarse CFI (meh)

coarse cfi just enforces that you can't jump into the middle of a function or w/e

only call actual functions

but ANY

shadow stack is just for returns

not indirect calls (function pointers, virtual function tables for C++ virtual functions, also non-virtual indirect method calls, etc.)

SafeStack tries to protect anything on the stack without address taken but kinda fails hard at it in practice since it depends on ASLR too but it's easier to leak the address

and lacks a way to enforce it in hw

memory tagging might be able to help with these things

reserve a tag value for internal use by libc

and use it for shadow stacks, etc.

and have compiler use that tag

and malloc, etc. exclude that tag for use

I find CFI really interesting

It's cool

I'm sorry I didn't research that better before making such a statement. Thank you for the explanation and information

chromium uses Clang CFI on ChromeOS / desktop Linux

and it works for Android but there are size concerns

Isn't CFG being worked on to be more fine-grained though? I.e. XFG

they are in the process of doing it for Windows, the issue is deploying Clang CFI there

madaidan.: query.prod.cms.rt.microsoft.com/cms/api/am/binary/RE37dMC

Yeah I saw that a while ago

basically tho it isn't that yet

and Google wants to use Clang and Clang CFI on Windows

it may make more sense to just use what Microsoft ends up providing

or use what Microsoft provides for what they can't cover with Clang CFI

madaidan.: Chromium uses CFG like that already

i.e. for system DLLs etc

strcat (@strcat:matrix.org): does CFG vs Strict CFG make a notable difference?

cyredanthem: that just prevents loading DLLs without it doesn't it?

doesn't really do anything aside from preventing you from screwing up

in an obvious way

That's my understand

and that's assuming you are using something better like Clang CFI

Understanding*

in which case you won't have CFG for those

> * Could not reach our servers to perform the test. You may not be connected to the internet

k website

@strcat:matrix.org your website is gold

what was the reasoning behind raising the minimum api level?

in the latest update

<WokeBillKristol[ "what was the reasoning behind ra"> There's many privacy/security improvements in newer API levels

Seems like Android is really trying hard to catch-up with iOS

New Android Flaw Affecting Over 1 Billion Phones Let Attackers Hijack Apps

Android <= 9 only and patched in the April security patch so old news now

yes that's not relevant you shouldn't ever use an old version of Android

Yea true sry, but poor those users that only get a new phone when the old one dies which means its been a long time they're without any OS or security patch update

The only phones people should ever buy are iPhones and Pixels

<cn3m[m] "The only phones people should ev"> Unfortunately, former are expensive and not everyone wants them and the latter are not available in some places

well then get a used iPhone?

There are people who don't want an iPhone

here a great condition iPhone 8 with a good battery can go as low as $150 with 2.5-4.5 years left

@essentialchaos:tchncs.de Android phones are just more expensive per year. If you can't afford them iPhones are the cheap option

I didn't say Android flagships are not expensive

I mean you get what you pay for

True, but both Android flagships and iPhones have features, that I don't need, but still have to pay for

@essentialchaos:tchncs.de iPhone SE and Pixel 3a are super barebones

iPhone SE on the other hand lacks some things...

Like a bigger screen

And a bigger battery

the battery is more than a day easy

3a is nice, but again not available in some places

With what usage?

Google and Apple only have each other as competition so what's there to expect?

@essentialchaos:tchncs.de I've a few friends with them and they are doing content consumption all the time

iPhone SE also has that A13, that it doesn't need, but probably has to sacrifice some battery life for it

videos, games, Facebook

A13 is super efficient

and it will make it usable still in 5 years

Ok, still have an issue with that screen

<cn3m[m] "and it will make it usable still"> If battery doesn't die

it's $50 to go to a store and have them doing it officially for you

half way through you just go to the store and bingo

$450 for 5 years out of a phone is great

Ok, that solves the battery, but I still have an issue with 4.7" screen

wait for the Plus rumored to launch beginning of next year?

iPhone SE Plus would be 5.5"

SE Plus?

> next year

Can't wait that long, also probably will be more expensive

EssentialChaos: do you want a phone or not

It was supposedly delayed due to COVID

SE is already out of budget

$450 is the rumor

@essentialchaos:tchncs.de get a busted used Pixel 3 or 3a?

I'd suggest a Nokia phone on the android one program

If you can't afford a pixel

Motorola has a better track record

just make sure you get a Qualcomm

<zaxxa[m] "I'd suggest a Nokia phone on the"> What makes them better option than other oems?

xabi: fast updates stock Android

could really use help with the Bluetooth issue

xabi: Also not having apps preinstalled apart from Google

I can't work on something where I don't have hardware with the issue

the attempted fix caused more problems / didn't fully fix it

need to get this addressed

strcat: I noticed that media playing works after the latest update but I haven't tried calls. I can test it on my 3a tomorrow.

need development help too

Yeahh... My Android knowledge on that front is extremely limited... :(

not asking you specifically :P

but the channel

valldrac helped a lot but this requires more help

valldrac doesn't have enough hardware to test etc

Yes, exactly. I'm going to order a bluetooth headset with microphone to test calls. But I don't think it will be enough

cn3m do you run openBSD on desktop?

so please, if have any issue with bluetooth audio, follow GrapheneOS/os_issue_tracker #137#issuecomment-633990360 and provide us with the sysdump for audio

<qyo3462572445[m] "cn3m do you run openBSD on deskt"> His profile pictures are sarcastic

<madaidan[m] "His profile pictures are sarcast"> Copy. Figured I'd ask.

valldrac: sounds a bit like it fixed music and broke calls

but I don't see how it'd break calls if before it was randomized and now it has an order that makes sense

<qyo3462572445[m] "cn3m do you run openBSD on deskt"> it's pretty bad OS tbh

They advertise it to be very secure, what is the catch?

I don't think it's a bad OS for the use case it fits

@xabierd:matrix.org it is out of the box, but the whole security model falls apart after that

especially if you use it as a desktop

which is mainly the context I meant it in

the mitigations are a little underwhelming in some ways

I have used openbsd as a desktop and as a server

Its a bit hard to work with but its unique

@nickcalyx:matrix.org no sandboxing on your browser is a deal break imo

We used to have sun SPARC 20's with dual headed sun monitors at my old old office

And we had a VAX running openbsd

I don't think any browsers had sandboxing back then

It literally took 5 or more minutes to login via ssh on the VAX.. Because of key exchange and the crypto calculations. You had to.crank the timeouts on both client and server

@nickcalyx:matrix.org holy cow

Now you kids get off my lawn

cn3m: doesn't have the most modern mitigations but it's a lot simpler and more minimal which has value too

to run on some machine to run a specific service

works well for that

what are you thoughts on Hardened BSD?

they do good work but I'd rather start from OpenBSD for a server use case, fork that

HardenedOpenBSD

that's a good point. I usually just use Linux for servers as that's what I know

I will try OpenBSD someday

I use hardenedbsd for.things

Like the firewall/VPN distro I use, opnsense is based on hardeeedbsd

I was running all my Tor nodes on hardenedbsd but switched back to Debian because their algorithms are much slower on BSD than linux

nickcalyx: give alpine linux a shot, too

nickcalyx[m]: Which algorithms?