I just checked Wire's twitter, and don't any tweets about Copperhead posted anymore either. Thanks so much to everyone who proofread my letter, and everyone else who did things to help.

What happened?

I asked James if he's seething from it and he ignored me so I must assume he's pissed

Wire announced a partnership with Copperhead on Twitter and on their blog. The blog post has been taken down and the tweets appear to be deleted as well

Still listed on Copperhead's website but that's to be expected

<madaidan[m] "I asked James if he's seething f"> Oh shit he's gonna see this

I didn't mean it James

Also hi James.

He's somehow an even bigger piece of shit than the other James I had to deal with all of last year.

Wire eh.

Does anyone know if they solved their metadata and multi-device issue?

Also any word on how long they are going to support the consumer version of Wire?

You don’t need to worry about metadata with wire just sign up with bogus email and use Tor. It’s the only voice calling app that supports E2E encryption over TCP and actually works with Tor (yes calls are clear).

Even DDG already knows what's up lol

<adeus[m] "You don’t need to worry about me"> How do the other voice calling apps operate, if you've looked into them? Signal, Jami, Jitsi etc.

None of them work over Tor

They require UDP

Jitsi is not E2E

Hey, i just installed graphine today, and i was wondering if i could get some help with something

Im trying to get rid of the swipe features for the pixel 3a in exchange for the old 3 button system

i tried following this guide, but since nexus launcher is a google app its not on here in the first place xda-developers.com/disable-android-pie-gestures-google-pixel-3

What would be the equivalent that needs to be removed or is that not possible?

go to phone settings, search "System Navigation" and the last option is the classic 3 button

* go to phone settings, search "System Navigation", click that*, and the last option is the classic 3 button

you don't need to disable the default launcher or use a different launcher

Oooohhhhhh

im an idiot

Thanks for your help

no prob

What do you all think about using my fingerprint for unlocking my device

Right now I'm using a strong alphanumeric passcode but it's a pain to put in every time I want to use my phone

So I was just wondering how much less secure using something like fingerprint unlocking would be

faxing: use a long pin

Is there any phone supported by graphene OS that can also use SD cards?

So stick with my current strong alphanumeric passphrase?

<anne232 "Is there any phone supported by "> No, there's no security and privacy focused phones that support an internal one

<faxing[m] "So stick with my current strong "> I'd use a long pin with no fingerprint

why not

<anne232 "why not"> It's just not popular anymore. Pixels and iPhones are really only the device worth jumping on imo

iphones LOL

why would anyone ever?

is having more memory not worth it?

if i got a pixel 3a or pixel 3 or something with 64gb

what if i need more storage than that

and what about samsungs phones? I know graphene doesnt support them, but are they not popular? why are they so much worse

<anne232 "why would anyone ever?"> iPhones are really the only comparable option to GrapheneOS on a Pixel

in what way is it comparable?

privacy wise and in terms of being able to customize it, i'd say it's not

apple constantly tracks your location etc

ive always kind of thought iphones are for simpletons

<anne232 "apple constantly tracks your loc"> That's factually incorrect. They ask on setup

<anne232 "ive always kind of thought iphon"> Before iOS 12 I'd agree with you

<anne232 "if i got a pixel 3a or pixel 3 o"> I use the Pixel 3a, but the 3 makes sense if you don't need the longer support time

<anne232 "is having more memory not worth "> All Pixels are 4GB

i mean storage cn3m[m]

and idk im fairly sure they constantly have the ability to track you. I was at a party a week ago and my friend accidently dialed emergency services

and they knew his exact location, we werent at his house so it wasnt linked to phone records or anything

they called him back and knew his address and sent a cop etc.

how could that have happened w/o apple tracking you?

On the graphene websitr it mentions user profiles to isolate apps from sharing info. So anyone know if every time I switch to a different user profile if its still technically running in the background?

Or does it disable the profile once I switch? Sorry I'm unable to find this answer

<anne232 "and idk im fairly sure they cons"> If you opt out it's not sending your location. Emergency services can triangulate you with call towers. I worked on ad tech apps for Android and iOS and I've MITMd both systems. Apple isn't spying on you

<interceptingfist "On the graphene websitr it menti"> I believe other profiles still run in the background, try this conversation in the irc log freenode.logbot.info/grapheneos/20200615#c4133666

since per user profile keys are a thing they shouldn't be active until you log in (if a pin or something is set)

ok thank you

Its a bummer they stay logged in when you switch profiles

It's a feature. You can actively use profiles interchangeably

Though I don't use profiles due to vpn leak

Yea but it looks like they all stay logged in until you reboot

I have a flash router so VPN should be fine for me

@cn3m[m], you're trying to tell me they tringulated his cell phone to the exact location and address that he is at in about thirty seconds???

honestly probably less. they called him back seconds after he hanged up the accidental call and already knew his address like 10 seconds into the call.

The NSA can

The NSA likely can. But can 911 operators?

Yes idk...

To triangulate would take a bit of time

exactly.

We ain't China, were not that that far advanced

That's my point. Apple tracks your location.

Def do but the operator doesn't know what phone he has

"

Apple is rolling out a new feature in its next iPhone software update to send emergency responders instant, precise location information in the US. "

If they have the ability to do this, they could certainly track you for other reasons.

Wow holy shit

Just read majority of it

They basically have a built in emergency system

anne232: emergency calling location reporting is very different. It never phones home to Apple on my system my location

How do you know that?

Apple is the one implementing this sytem.

It means regardless, that there is some kind of sophisticated tracking software on the device.

It's call GPS

Even if it doesn't constantly send them the location, they definitely have the ability to track you, based on this.

That system will be abused

I know. But the fact that they can activate it any time is very spooky.

I MITM my iPad Pro

By government type

It's purely under user control

The NSA or another adversary could almost certainly take advantage of this 'emergency calling location reporting'

Wondr if it works if user opts out

<anne232 "The NSA or another adversary cou"> They can't

How could you know taht cn3m[m] ?

Trust me, they do

They have a buddy that works in dispatch

<anne232 "How could you know taht cn3m ?"> It is a text message from gps when you make an action on your device.

You just don't call emergency services

I like feature for my wife though

so it works even on device with no sim?

probably

<notmyname723[m] "so it works even on device with "> Yes, all device have to support that legally

a little more personal security is not worth a privacy sacrifice

then it shouldn't be cell tower triangulation

if works without sim

I would never call emergency services anyways lmfao who does thaty

<anne232 "a little more personal security "> It's opt in by calling them

<notmyname723[m] "then it shouldn't be cell tower "> This uses GPS

I wonder if it auto turns on gps if its off

I don't think GPS ever works if you don't turn on location services. This might have an override. I can't really test it on my iPad

cn3m: can ad companies tell if location is spoofed?

I love my iPad mini

find my iphone turns on location services even when previously off

<notmyname723[m] "cn3m: can ad companies tell if l"> On XPrivacyLua? Yes

Apple makes a good tablet

location spoofer from cydia

Do you all use graphene

why would anyone want to use an ios device?

<notmyname723[m] "location spoofer from cydia"> I'm not sure I'd never encourage that

<interceptingfist "Do you all use graphene"> I do

why not just use an android tablet with a special OS, or something like that pinetab, or better yet, just a laptop?

I'm loving the battery life

old device

I really dont see the practical use of tablets in most cases tbqh. they can usually be replaced by laptops or phones

<anne232 "why would anyone want to use an "> Since they are the best for people who can't run GrapheneOS due to app compatibility

what app compataibility?

ios almost impossible to brick

<anne232 "I really dont see the practical "> I just play a couple games it, and use ebsy amazon lol

what app could you possibly need that isnt worth giving up

since you can't modify much anyway

<anne232 "what app could you possibly need"> Only 2% of the privacy community uses a degoogled Android. It's apparently very common

I think more people care about camera in phone than privacy

sub-portion of already small group

that doesnt mean that they should be doing that

those people are ignorant. plain and simple

<anne232 "that doesnt mean that they shoul"> You can't tell people what to do

<interceptingfist "I think more people care about c"> most want more followers on social media

The weird thing is Steve jobs didn't care about people

He wouldn't have implemented that

He didn't care that the fox con workers were jumping off the building

<interceptingfist "The weird thing is Steve jobs di"> Tim Cook and Zdiziarski are the only reason I changed my mind on Apple

all bourgeois cunts

Anne what phone you got

<anne232 "all bourgeois cunts"> Sounds like you have a lot in common

not sure about Cook, them suddenly focusing on privacy seems to be PR move

what do you mean? LOL

My phone is privacy , my wife's is a standard Samsung heh

and interceptingfist I dont use Graphene OS at the moment, I joined this IRC to get more information about what phone I should get because I want to use it soon. That being said, I use one of the earlier Pixels with LineageOS

Zdziarski is pretty awesome

well i have a tendency to force my privacy concerns onto others lol

<anne232 "and interceptingfist I dont use "> Nice

If youre gonna communicate with me at all, you have to encrypt your phone, install Signal etc

From what I've read apple without social media is fairly private phone

I dont trust them at all.

<interceptingfist "From what I've read apple withou"> Pretty much what I do for my iPad

I hate the grid though

<anne232 "why not just use an android tab"> The pinetab is not usable it use a old quad a53 soc! Just get a iPad the lower end model is 250€ ans ipadOs is better than anything else

A few years ago, some piece of shit hack security company gave the FBI a 0day that could circumvent the encryption on the iphone

or greenmoon[m] , you could not get a tablet at all or get something like a surface or chromebook and install linux on it?

Does android 10 share apd data to other apps?

idk that just seems like a much better option than getting an iphone. you could always get an android tablet and install another rom on it in some cases.

<anne232 "A few years ago, some piece of s"> All of those have either been pre SEP or a bad pin

<interceptingfist "Does android 10 share apd data t"> Yes to a lot limited degree

Will they ever eliminate that you think?

<anne232 "idk that just seems like a much "> No Android tablet is even remotely secure

Apple doesn't do that I don't think

why do you say that?

Not only that, but "Install another ROM" most "kustum ROMz" don't support verified boot, OTA updates, they use debug builds, and significantly roll back the SELinux security policies.

<interceptingfist "Will they ever eliminate that yo"> GrapheneOS has proposed scoped apps

only few android tablets support LOS (decent for privacy, bad for security)

how is Lineage bad for security lol

<anne232 "why do you say that?"> No tablet gets monthly updates

need twrp to flash rom

can't lock bootloader

anne232: as above. If you're not getting verified boot, and you're using debug builds, pretty much you're screwed the moment you get a browser exploit.

sometimes selinux permissive instead of enforcing

tbh i dont understand why the bootloader thing matters that much?

anne232: ok, are you familiar with verified boot?

Not really, no

im no security expert

but im very interested in security still lol

Ok, let me back this up and try to break it down for you a little bit:

you don't want someone installing a modified version of your OS

Lineage breaks verified boot, rollback protections, damages the sandbox, it also uses CAF which is questionable and lies about security patches.

also im not sure that you do need twrp for lineage? I didnt use it.

<cn3m[m] "GrapheneOS has proposed scoped a"> Is this already implemented

most devices, yes

mine didnt require it.

* most devices, yes you need twrp

Starting with Android 7, it became mandatory for OEMs to implement something called Verified Boot: this meant while the bootloader was locked, the late-stage bootloader would check the signature on the entire persistent system image. This ensured that you could prove, with a high degree of certainty, that the image you were running, is legitimate. The rationale:

<interceptingfist "Is this already implemented"> No sadly it's not

* most devices, yes you need twrp recovery

Let's say that you end up visiting a website that runs a JS Exploit and it breaks out of the browser, breaks out of the SELinux sandbox, and gets an exploit that can change your system partition, and install low-level malware.

If your bootloader is locked,

Verified boot was 4.4. It was just a warning though

Then simply rebooting will /revert/ those changes and restore your system image, which includes everything right down to your firmware, to a pre-compromise condition.

this means that you'd need to get compromised /again/ before someone can continue doing nasty things to your phone.

<anne232 "also im not sure that you do nee"> which device?

iOS hasn't had an exploit that can break verified boot since 2016 even with it's very active jailbreak community hunting for one even on unpatched versions

That orange warning sign you see "Software Integrity Not Guaranteed?" that's what this mean - you're essentially placing your trust into the persistent partition on the phone and hoping for the best, rather than having a proper root of trust.

Verified boot is incredibly strong on a well designed OS like ChromeOS, Android, and iOS

And lineageos does not use verified boot?

days of untethered jailbreaks behind us

Essentially, you've just ensured that should your phone get a compromise, that compromise is now persistent.

all semi-tethered now

<notmyname723[m] "days of untethered jailbreaks be"> Honestly a very good thing

Im out Good night

anne232: yup, LineageOS considers verified boot an antifeature and disables it because people want to play sysadmin with their phones.

Also is an attack like that not unlikely? I mean, your computer doesnt have a "verified boot" on it

so couldnt you make the same argument in a case like this?

is there any way i could enable it on lineageos?

<anne232 "Also is an attack like that not "> macOS, ChromeOS do and Windows in extremely rare cases

anne232: the desktop doesn't have verified boot because the desktop security model is perimeter based and no real progress on it has been made since the 1990's, and it's hobbled by reverse compatibility.

macOS and ChromeOS it is mandatory

but who wants to use those? lol

<cn3m[m] "macOS and ChromeOS it is mandato"> uefi for macos?

those are shit operating systems, why would anyone use anything other than linux in 2020?

an attack like this is actually very likely - again, this is part of a defense-in-depth strategy which understands that it is possible for root level compromises to occur.

<notmyname723[m] "uefi for macos?"> T2 enforces verified boot and it's pretty solid. Not perfect

After all that's essentially what's been plaguing the desktop since the 1990's.

that only for new devices?

i mean if someone roots your linux box you are fucked...

I dont see how im put any more at risk not having verified boot on my phone

than not having it on my desktop...?

This is why the attitude taken by /sane/ mobile operating system developers is to essentially lock down the entire system image and write the operating system as a large collection of mutually-distrusting components which are constrained by mandatory access controls to /only/ have the access they need.

Lineage also has known vulnerabilities against it in the vast majority of cases so verified boot on those devices is very important

they're probably often patched? i mean im not expert but why would a developer leave major vulnerabilities unpatched?

Laziness.

And because again,

LineageOS caters to people who want to play sysadmin with their phones or "power users" and considers verified boot and security obstacle to that.

<anne232 "they're probably often patched? "> Partly due to unpatchable issues too due to vendor

<TheJollyRoger "LineageOS caters to people who w"> also unofficial support for devices where official support ended

People who also don't know any better and don't understand the nature of Android also end up falling for those "Privacy Theatre" apps like Xprivacy etc,

which simply do client-side checks that /provide a false sense of privacy/.

idek what xprivacy is

Or firewalls which are harmful

I just like that lineageos doesnt have all the google b/s in it

Good thing you don't, it's essentially just an app that offers you the illusion your phone is spoofing data.

and it allows old phones to still function and get newer software, has selinux,

<anne232 "I just like that lineageos doesn"> If you want that and security GrapheneOS and iOS are both more memorable

But it won't work unless you completely disable the android security model.

<anne232 "and it allows old phones to stil"> not always, sometimes permissive

Lineage always weakens SELinux policies

So these people who didn't know any better just decided to do away with a proper security model entirely, because they just didn't know any better and only went on what the UI was telling them :D

does stock android even have them at all?

Along with non Pixel devices in general in most cases

anne232: which phone doesn't require twrp to flash lineage?

anne232: AOSP does not include Google.

notmyname723[m], Pixel XL

anne232: those old phones are no longer recieving firmware updates, so it would be unwise to use them. In theory, you could maintain your own fork of AOSP to backport the security patches if you really wanted to, but I don't encourage people to hold out on devices that no longer are getting vendor support.

RattlesnakeOS still supports the Pixel XL for example. It does have known vulnerabilities(nothing like Lineage though)

possible to sideload aosp gsi without edits on trebel supported device?

* possible to install aosp gsi without edits on trebel supported device?

what vulnerabilities does lineage have that are provable?

would basic functions work?

* would basic functions work out of box?

I mean, what OS should I go with then if I shouldnt be using Lineage?

Personal rant, I have no idea why the open source community raises so much hell about "Teh BaSeBand BaKCdurr Pr0seSSar!!11" and "Bl0BBy f1rmW4Re!!11" and then hold out on insecure devices that are no longer getting firmware updates.

Doesn't make sense. Too much cognitive dissonance.

I currently have a pixel XL, and I plan to change that soon, but for now, is Lineage not my best option?

<anne232 "what vulnerabilities does lineag"> Check the Android Security Bulletin. anything in a vendor image is not patched

<anne232 "I currently have a pixel XL, and"> RattlesnakeOS is the most secure OS available

Yeah, as an interim measure, go that way.

It will only support the OG Pixel until Android 11 is released

Serious security focused OSs like GrapheneOS and CalyxOS wouldn't support it as it's unsafe

how can an entire device just be inherently unsafe?

At least not on public releases

<anne232 "how can an entire device just be"> Since it has publicly known flaws that can't be fixed

why cant or wont they be fixed?

anne232: Would you like the short version or the long version?

whatever you feel like typing, I'd be interested in either.

Damn I have a bug with the new riotx update

Ok, pour yourself a drink.

("Pour yourself a drink" = my way of saying "we could be here for a long time.")

that's fine.

im here to learn.

Apple supports their devices for 5-7 years since they control the hardware and software development. Qualcomm and others don't want to develop security patches for that long and charge a lot. To have an Android go over 3 years you would need to pay a lot of money to vendors or control the hardware firmware stack

So the thing with computers nowadays except for a couple very, very, VERY tiny embedded systems, we're used to thinking of them as discrete assemblies of a CPU, GPU, RAM, Hard Drives, etc... but what the interesting thing is, your computer, and by extension, your cellphone, are actually networked, interconnected distributed systems consisting of *thousands* of computers which work

co-operatively to give you the impression of a complete system;

take for instance, that SD Cards run their own operating system to perform error correction, writelevelling, and maintenance operations on the flash memory storage.

In order to operate transparently to the host operating system, with the "host" being the operating system you see.

You with me so far?

yes

Something of interest in phones is that they run their CPUs are best described as "Systems On Chip" - Your phone's CPU is its own complete packaged system, consisting of the CPU, GPU, modem and radios, etc. all compressed into the same chip. A lot of parts on it, are going to be interconnected. Again, nothing inherently bad about that - that's how we can get phones down to such small, neat,

cute, power-sipping form factors.

*is that the CPUs that they run are best described as

This is going to get nuanced hurriedly - firmware in itself isn't a bad thing. It's how we can have operating systems that we can simply compile for a device, or run on a wide variety of devices that are similar, without having to port each operating system to the device in assembly.

*each operating system to each device in assembly

This is also why anyone proclaiming to you to sell a device to that's "firmware free" is lying through their teeth.

The firmware is going to be the (significantly more primitive) operating systems that the other components on the SoC will be running. Your phone's SSD, GPU, the radios, etc.

Now... before you start asking me about "TeH BaSeBAnD BacKdURR!", I'm going to state that on devices that GrapheneOS supports, the modems are isolated from host memory via the CPU's system memory management unit.

okay gimme one sec to read this, i was getting a drink

Firmware should be signed and it should be validated on initialization by those devices themselves, which are permanently fused to only run firmware that is valid from their vendors.

Yep, the "Pour yourself a drink" is not just figurative, it's very literal when I say it.

:)

<interceptingfist "Or does it disable the profile o"> Theres some info about user & work profiles here hub.libranet.de/wiki/and-priv-sec/wiki/user-profiles

I see.

So here's the thing:

TheJollyRoger: I disagree

Although devices on the host is isolated (people who go on and on about basebands being "backdoors" are living about 10 years in the past), security is a /process/ and not a once-and-done affair. On something as complex and versatile as the tangled mess of CPUs and devices that are computers, work NEEDs to be done on more than just the host to do things such as mitigate exploits:

Hey anupritaisno1[m] what's up?

Firmware doesn't have a revocation policy

We should actually have a master key that signs other keys

So in case of a leak revocation is possible

Heh. Well... if we're going to try to recover a set of signing keys, well, that's sorta beyond my pay grade :P.

A leaked signing key would suck on any system other than Pixels solid custom OSes

* A leaked signing key would be absolutely devasting on any system other than Pixels solid custom OSes

anne232: so that's why vendor support is /needed/ to keep those devices secure. Firmware nonetheless occupies a very important and privileged position in your devices, and the thing is that Google negotiates with Qualcomm for three years of support, after which Qualcomm says "Sorry bro, but I'm not going to continue fixing this anymore."

Heh, yeah X(

so

how can this be fixed or improved upon?

anne232: you got a pen?

like we as humanity have to move past this at some point?

sure lol, i have notepad

strcat[m]: hey, my outgoing emails to outlook are getting makred as junk mail

how do i debug this

i checked spf/dkim and all they look OK

<anne232 "how can this be fixed or improve"> Apple did it by making their own SOCs. Google could do that

Write your politicians, get out and start knocking on doors, and start forming a lobby to require Qualcomm and other SoC vendors to support their SoCs, or get a class action lawsuit together to hold them responsible for planned obsolescence.

lol that peaceful shit doesnt work

Support brands that already have long support (Apple 5-7 years) (Google 3 years). They obviously see the reward in it

rev up the molatov cocktails smh

is there any way we can just make them no longer need to support it anyways? like is there a whole entire alternative?

anne232: Whatever floats your boat, but I've often said that attacking a computer is a technological measure, and defending one is a matter of politics. Fixing tech is comparatively easy compared to fixing /people/.

anne232: sure, go and steal get their signing keys.

eh. are multi billion dollar corps and their execs really 'people'?

thats quite the task lol

I just wish we didn't have to rely on these big corps for our firmware and tech in general.

Political talk I'd prefer not to go into, but this is why it's a difficult task.

I wish smaller businesses or better yet, collectives, could manufacture our things, instead of wealthy interest groups and the likes being in charge

Yeah, I agree

this is an irl channel for graphene, I get that.

But I do feel as if it is somewhat related.

its just hard to not lean that way at least a little bit when discussing a subject such as this.

Mhmm.

At the same time, this is a two-edged sword. Firmware /should/ be signed, because hooooohohoo boy, when it isn't, that's when things can get really messy in a hurry insofar as where security is concerned.

Just hope Google makes their own chips without getting rid of the Qualcomm bootloader features like custom key for verified boot

Yeah.

Huh, I thought firmware is like drivers for the hardware you have, not actually an OS on its own for those parts

Kernel wise you're looking at up to 5 years support

mobile security is more complicated to some degree, i guess

Computer security itself is complicated.

well yeah i know

as i said earlier im not expert but it just seems like mobile devices add more complexity in a way

mxnorvak[m]: yep, the driver in your host often will talk to the firmware, which then does its own magic.

You may find it amusing to know that an eight-port MicroSEMI SAS controller can have up to ~40MB of binary firmware fused into its own onboard read-only memory.

Which is often compressed, signed and validated.

That's more than enough space to fit an entire Linux Kernel and userspace.

anne232: modern devices are so very complex that it takes the resources of a huge company to make a decent job of putting them together

Actually, several huge companies

anne232: if you're curious, I own and use a Talos II as my daily driver computer. The motherboard alone came with more than 7000 pages of documentation, including the POWER ISA reference manual, and hundreds of pages of schematics, and required compiling more than 64MB of firmware.

Needs 2000 more pages

OVER 9000!

Well if you add the POWER reference manual...

There we go

Then very well you could get OVER NINE THOUSAND! :D

anne232: if you're curious about a platform that you can control down to the firmware, that's about as good as you're going to get at this moment.

Theres been various efforts to develop computer systems that start to break out from being dominated by a huge corporate. But its difficult.

The amount of *risk* that someone has to shoulder to design a CPU is absolutely insane.

Getting silicon made is no easy task.

<TheJollyRoger "mxnorvak: yep, the driver in you"> It's always great when i assume i know quite enough about one thing and I've seen these conversations multiple times but then i start reading the chat and I'm like, I need to learn the basics again

mxnorvak[m]: heh, well... I'm always considering myself a student when I'm at the keyboard. These areas of study are bottomless pits >_<.

Sometimes firmware is loaded from /lib/firmware in the form of precompiled, signed and verified binary packages each time that the host boots, or it's stated by loading it into SPI flash or electronically erasable programmable read only memory on the device itself.

Making computer chips isnt very easy/practical. Especially on a small scale

Yeah :(...

there are open source firmwares for alot of hardware now though, yes?

There's a place I heard about that will do low volume production runs of silicon by assembling several masks into a single mask, then running it all as the same batch, but as Louis Armstrong said "If you gots to ask how much it costs you can't afford it!"

Some people are doing it. But, as far as I understand, the chips you can do are like decades old tech.

Then theres FPGAs

TheJollyRoger: I think some university labs could

<TheJollyRoger "The amount of *risk* that someon"> Don't you mean amount of RISC 😅

TheJollyRoger, I cant seem to find anything on this tallos II online really lol

anne232: no, not really. There's been efforts like Coreboot to attempt to develop open source firmware for devices that don't have signature validation, but they've been developed by the slow and painful process of reverse engineering, and on modern devices all they really do is make calls back to a management interface that's known only to Intel anyways.

Again, compared to a modern device, a huge downgrade in performance

anne232: raptorcs.com

<anne232 "there are open source firmwares "> The problem is there's a lot of work that goes into secure firmware. For example Qualcomm does an amazing job. So does Apple. MediaTek left a critical issue for a year. Not sure if they have fixed it

There you go.

dallemon[m]: ahahahahaha I laughed XD

ive never really worried about hardware security much, should I really?

and yeah i was referring to coreboot, libreboot and similar

JTL: hey that's awesome! I hope maybe I could come across something like that someday.

Heh maybe

anne232: at this point, your most secure hardware is going to be your Pixel 3a.

i was speaking more along the lines of desktop

Libreboot ships with vulnerabilities

anne232: devices running libreboot are going to be permanently vulnerable to Spectre and Meltdown.

but should i not just go and get a 3a xl or a 3 xl or a 3?

then whats the point in libreboot

<TheJollyRoger "anne232: at this point, your mos"> Isn't iPhone still a little ahead and Graphene wins in software?

<anne232 "then whats the point in libreboo"> "freedom"

Meaning the JS running in your browser from off the Internet can reach out of the browser, reach out of the virtual machine you've isolated the guest VM in, reach INTO A DIFFERENT VM, and suck out your disk encryption keys or your GPG private keys.

Enjoy.

coreboot could accomplish the same?

wait what, TheJollyRoger ?

oh nvm i get it now

idk like should i be paranoid about my computer hardware now?

Pixel 4 and 4a are technically more secure on a hardware level than the 3s, but without official GrapheneOS can't recommend that yet

anne232: Any modern x86 devices running Coreboot are simply using Coreboot as a shim to issue callbacks to a management interface that's closed source, so you might as well consider any modern x86 devices running coreboot to simply not even be open.

<anne232 "but should i not just go and get"> It's very much a personal choice

Pixel 3 has just under 1.5 years left on support

is the 3 not better than the 3a?

Theres this FPGA based project bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5706

anne232: Get the device with the features you care the most about. The 3a has a headphone jack and will be supported for longer. The 3 has wireless charging and a better camera.

<cn3m[m] "Isn't iPhone still a little ahea"> AFAIK you can still jailbreak an iPhone through the browser.

Pixel 3a just under 2

anne232: Like I said, if you're interested in hardware security and openness, at this moment your most solid bet is going to be a Talos II, Talos Lite, or a Blackbird from Raptor Computing Systems.

And -- heh, good point dazinism, I forgot about Betrusted -- /performant and usable as a desktop/.

Are you sure this isn't overkill?

Pixel 4 and A13 iPhones are definitely at the forefront hardware security wise

anne232: wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Category:Gallery The Morgan's Revenge be me ship.

can I run Qubes OS on these?

like if im gonna drop 7 grand on a computer

QubesOS at this moment requires a large amount of x86 assembly language. A port is in progress but may not be viable for some time yet.

and this hardware doesnt utilize anything like that?

Would it not be a lesser evil for me to just use qubes OS with my current hardware then?

Completely different Instruction Set Architecture.

Wouldnt there be a hell of a lot of compatibility issues?

No, they'll run what you compile for them, provided it's not written in an architecture-specific language like assembly.

I've gotten Unreal 4 to run on mine before.

However, if you don't know what you're doing or have immediate and ready access to people who can hold your hand through it like I did when I set up mine, stick with what you have.

In all honesty, there are *much* bigger things you have to worry about than closed source management interfaces on the desktop.

Like an inherently broken perimeter based security model that is stuck in the mid 1990's.

fuck

And won't change because that would break backwards compatibility or what we've come to expect out of the desktop.

this is all so heavy

<dallemon[m] "AFAIK you can still jailbreak an"> You can't

Qubes has some security concerns

lol

like what

I think there's too much trusted in the dom0 thanks to the repos

you dont even use the dom0 really

The guests are also insecure

guests?

I rarely ever run anything in the dom0

<anne232 "you dont even use the dom0 reall"> Everything is running off of dom0 if it's compromised it's game over

Qubes treats the isolation provided by the Xen hypervisor as a panacea, but neglects that compartmentalization does very little if all the guests themselves suffer the same vulnerabilities... like say, let's say Debian being years behind on security patches and sometimes disregarding security patches from upstream entirely unless a CVE gets assigned.

<anne232 "guests?"> Any VM you rub

Run*

I know that, even the qubes documentation admits that if the dom0 is compromised its game over.

<anne232 "I rarely ever run anything in th"> Updates man

But that's very unlikely.

Yeah only updates

thats literally it

I like to put this in ship terminology: it's kinda like what happened to the Titanic. Yes, it had watertight compartments, the fact that it could survive flooding in five didn't matter when six got punctured.

It's still much more secure than any other operating system out there that I know of.

Qubes trusts way too many builders and signers for comfort

<anne232 "But that's very unlikely."> It's not repo based attacks happen way more than you would think

ive not heard of any recently?

and what builders and signers do they trust that arent apart of the qubes project?

<anne232 "It's still much more secure than"> Windows 10 Secured Core, macOS, and ChromeOS have far better trust models

LOL

<anne232 "ive not heard of any recently?"> There was just a study where 174 supply chains got real world attacks. Snap also shipped malware

all 3 of those are spyware dude.

cn3m: and TheJollyRoger what do you run on your laptop then

The advantage of Qubes is that if one domain gets compromised, then it's not game over, but it on its own is not going to prevent all of them from being compromised via the same exploit

<anne232 "and what builders and signers do"> Everyone from Fedora hahah

how can they all get compromised from the same attack? that doesnt make sense

the whole point of qubes is that you run different things in different qubes

<nickcalyx[m] "cn3m: and TheJollyRoger what d"> I run Windows 10 Enterprise on mine. Notably more secure than QubesOS for me

<anne232 "how can they all get compromised"> You trust the signing of the updates you get which is serious

anne232: sure they can. Debian is lagging years behind in security updates and exploit mitigations.

Dude, Idc what you say

advocating windows 10 is absurd

windows 10 is not secure or private.

<anne232 "all 3 of those are spyware dude."> Stop trolling anne

im not

<anne232 "how can they all get compromised"> If one VM can get hacked it stands to reason they could hack the others

<anne232 "windows 10 is not secure or priv"> Prove it

And if you choose to connect those domains to the internet, they can very well be attacked simultaneously because Debian doesn't backport security fixes from upstream unless they get a CVE.

right, but im not gonna be running the same softwar eon al vms

Windows 10 with some light tweaks comes up clean on MITM

An attack like that seems unlikely and unrealistic. if i use one qube for chatting, one qube for browsing the internet, another for Tor browser, etc.

<anne232 "right, but im not gonna be runni"> You will likely have a browser on each

how am i gonna have all of my vms hacked?

Nope lol

cn3m: how can you quantify that windows 10 is more secure than qubes exactly, though

So, this is why I say that Qubes is a welcome and appreciated move to a decent security model on the desktop, it's not a panacea

LOL yes, ikr nickcalyx[m]

anne232: consider Systemd yet? :)

*systemd yet?

what about systemd?

idk ive researched it abit and it seems like the paranoia surrounding systemd may be..... idk im iffy on this

im not super educated, but systemd doesnt seem that terrible?

What each of your domains is running for its init and what the operating system's going to fall back for things like say... hey DNS, and yes you can be attacked over DNS.

and yes TheJollyRoger , nothing is "a panacea"

<nickcalyx[m] "cn3m: how can you quantify that "> I have Windows Sandbox which is running on Hyper-V which is first class. I have core isolation. I have NT kernel. I have WDAG(also based on Hyper-V) I have Windows 10 which has far better hardening. I have defense in depth which Qubes doesn't. I also only trust one company to ship updates and everyone there is paid

Windows 10 is more secure in every meaningful metric. It uses a ton of ram though

cn3m: ok but I was asking about how you quantify that windows is more secure than qubes

It's a clunky pieces of shit and a privacy hazard. Microsoft has spooks in the system to spy on you. Linux systems are far more useful in general too.

and how do you know windows has "far better" hardening

Windows has a long history of being exploited lol

<nickcalyx[m] "cn3m: ok but I was asking about "> In what way is it anything but demonstrably more secure how I have it setup?

I'm not going to go into detail on systemd, but it's an example of where disregarding of hardening of the individual domains can lead to simultaneous compromise, even if you do everything right - and on Debian this problem is exacerbated because Debian freezes the packages at a specific version, and then tries to backport security fixes to them from upstream, then diverges significantly from

upstream over time.

i use a combination of arch, debian and fedora qubes for different purposes.

cn3m: I'm not making a claim that qubes is more secure. I'm asking you how you quantify that windows is more secure than qubes

so im not too worried about debian specific issues.

what's the methodology

Hardening is an easy win for Windows 10 and NT kernel(which is much better designed for security).

you can do 'hardening' on a linux system as well.

how can you quantify that windows NT kernel is "better designed".. I'm not being argumentative but it just sounds like hot air when its not backed by methodology to compare and not quantified

<nickcalyx[m] "how can you quantify that window"> A perfect example (beside obvious quantifiable hardening) is how they are moving to a far more hybrid model. Look at the GPU crash on Linux and Windows. NT gets smaller and Linux gets bigger

this is really annoying, everything is setup correctly, but just because my ip address is not in some reputable list, my mail got marked as spam

lol gpu crash

stupid

Theres also this old classic about Windows

there's should be anti-trust regulations against these sort of behaviour

also either way, windows is still a piece of shit, it runs like shit, its clunky, microsoft spies on you and siphons information

<dazinism "Theres also this old classic abo"> That's a meme

cn3m: a great one though ;)

<anne232 "also either way, windows is stil"> Proof?

it runs like shit? theres lots of extra shit running on it and it makes the system clunky. microsoft admits that it sends some data to them, i wouldnt be surprised if it sent more.

Also another big downside to windows is that it doesnt have cryptsetup

anne232: Run an MITM. You can see what it's actually sending instead of spreading FUD like you're doing now

Windows 10 has CFG, a meaningful implementation of ASLR, it can force important hardening features like CFG, ACG, SimExec, CallerCheck, SEHOP, StackPivot even in userland. It has a minimal kernel. Windows 10 UWP apps are fully sandboxed. The virtualization is first in class. Windows 10 Secured Core can offer the best verified boot on x86. Microsoft is the only trusted party in updates. nickcalyx That's the main

highlights.

microsoft is known to be an nsa collaborating company

they collaborate with nsa spooks, its known

<anne232 "microsoft is known to be an nsa "> MITM it

you can run an mitm and maybe find a few things, or maybe find little to nothing, but if they wanted your data or info

they could get it.

your windows machine is not safe from adversaries.

Microsoft is the one that tried to escape the US data collection laws by moving it's servers.

yet they still collaborate with intelligence agencies as does google and such

😂

why do you want to defend these corporations?

microsoft.... as a trusted party....

<anne232 "why do you want to defend these "> They make the best software for security and by extension privacy

I use the best product

<cn3m[m] "Microsoft is the one that tried "> But did they succeed?

<anupritaisno1[m] "But did they succeed?"> They did until Congress passed a new law

Google is one of the biggest contributors to your saint Linux.

These companies do substantial work to move security forward

no they dont

And privacy without security is nothing more than theater

<anne232 "microsoft.... as a trusted party"> You completely trust every root cert

easily over microsoft

google has contributed nothing to linux. if anything they've made it worse^^

anne232: How does the Chromium sandbox not move browser security forward?

Compared to Pale Moon

Or IE6

<jcpicard32[m] "Google is one of the biggest con"> Google and Linux are both actively sharing vulnerabilities with the US and Chinese governments a month in advance so they can maintain their forks

You're just wrong that they're not improving security

Ok, that's enough. anne232, you're going into denial over Google and Linux.

cn3m: I'm aware

What does the.NSA.run

how so TheJollyRoger

Linux and Android share vulnerabilities with the feds and root certs could hack you. There's no safety from the government or big corporations anne232

<nickcalyx[m] "What does the.NSA.run"> I dunno, but whatever it is I want it

They run linux

lol of course google does but linux isnt really a corporation and has no incentive to

(Citation needed)

unless you have evidence, this is just conspiratorial

anne232: Consider that Google has consistently ranked among the "top ten" contributors to Linux and other projects like Kubernetes for many years.

but in what meaningful way have they actually contributed?

Truth is that probably no computer can be totally trusted

Android and ChromeOS do not count

anne232: I'd recommend watching this

About 5.3% of contributions to the kernel, behind Intel at ~12, and Red Hat at ~8, as well as -- haha damn jcpicard32[m] you beat me to it.

Google uses their hardware to fuzz the linux kernal

In doing so they've found bugs faster than they can be patched

<anne232 "unless you have evidence, this i"> They are an open source project of course they share vulnerabilities. There's security teams for this so people can maintain forks. That includes governments.

what percentage of google's contributions to linux are security related though.. as opposed to performance

yeah and also they share vulnerabilities with everyone, them being open source

<nickcalyx[m] "what percentage of google's cont"> Google tries to upstream security features all the time and Linux says it hits performance too hard. Look at the AOSP kernel and the ChromeOS kernel. They are much more secure

how does that mean that they share secret exploits with the government?

<anne232 "yeah and also they share vulnera"> They do it a month before the code is public

cn3m: I asked about percentages though

Read the links

evidence?

please

what advantage would this even provide

anne232: the advantage for one is doing things correctly

Its reasonable to suggest that iOS and Android/AOSP are the most secure operating systems avaialble.

lol what

as oppose to taking the shortcut

how is that correct in any sense of the word

<nickcalyx[m] "cn3m: I asked about percentages "> You mean that they reject?

<anne232 "evidence?"> I sent you two links

anne232: did you even see the part about syzbot finding bugs that the "precious open source community" hasn't? Some of them SEVERE?

What part of that do you not understand?

unfounded conspiracy theories are not welcome here.

aye^

Because honestly, I don't really have the patience to deal with Toxic Power User mentality.

if you want to discuss conspiracies, I expect you to pile on evidence.

anne232: More evidence than was given to me when I started looking has been given to you in the last ten minutes.

I suggest you read it instead of discussing with us

If you want to dispute this info from reputable sources I suggest you find your own reputable sources to do so

Google is the hero of Linux security. However Linux ignores their work and only cares about performance

also consider writing a paper and submitting it to a credible journal

if you're going to do the research

everyone will be interested.

It doesn't matter that you want Linux security to be comparable to Windows or MacOS

It's not for the reasons discussed in the links above

cn3m[m]: i believe at this point, google has given up

No serious exploitation researcher would consider Linux more secure than Windows

beyond very critical vulnerabilities that need to be patched, i doubt they upstream anything else

and backport mainline instead

LKML people cant take 1% performance hit for more correctness

lol

would they consider windows secure either?

anne232: probably not

i agree on linux itself, but what about distros that implement more security, and that are hardened?

but out of the box, relatively more secure

The stink of Linux weighs down on serious projects like GrapheneOS, ChromeOS, and Kicksecure. They are doing serious overhauls of security to counter, but Linux makes the situation worse every patch. Zircon can't come soon enough

anne232: the moment you make a syscall into supervisor mode, you are fucked.

anne232: if you're using any linux distro

it is free rein within the monolitith linux kerenl

it is a design problem

lol but proposing windows as an alternative seems silly cn3m[m]

ChromeOS, a serious project?

anne232: what are your main gripes with ChromeOS?

well for one, im pretty sure you need a google account to use alot of the features.

its very limited in features too

it feels more like you're using a smart phone than a desktop or laptop

anne232: you are talking about completely separate things and not security.

you're complaining about functionality.

well google account isnt a good thing for privacy.

if you dont have good security, you dont have privacy at all.

but sure. I concede that I dont know much about chrome OS in terms of security.

your privacy will eventually be compromised.

yeah, right, but

I think im much more private and secure

<anne232 "well google account isnt a good "> The integration is all open source you can audit it and the opt outs

using qubes OS properly on my computer

than using chrome OS lol

Going back to AOSP being one of the most secure operating systems available - this sounds like a nice plan grapheneos.org/#roadmap

<anne232 "but sure. I concede that I dont "> ChromeOS on official Chrome hardware is likely the more secure and open device you can get on the consumer level for a laptop. Even down to using Coreboot

anne232: maybe. if your hypervisor gets RCE-d gg let end.

all your opsec down the drain

and i believe its more likely to happen on qubes than on chromeos

lol

ChromeOS has verified boot, much stronger hardening measures, and meaningful sandboxing for programs

ChromeOS is meaningfully more secure and by extension private

No exploit mitigations and simple reliance on Xen!

Think Qubes is a reasonable choice given all options

except when google has access to all your info

take these complaints to the qubes developers and see what they have to say?

idk i may, im sure they hav ea response to this

i doubt its that simple.

TheJollyRoger: BTW I'm adding plugins to vanadium

*laughs in unlock*

qubes guys will say, they are doing the best they can with what they have, which is a commendable project.

anupritaisno1[m]: I cracked up XD

<anne232 "except when google has access to"> Check the source they don't

TheJollyRoger: well I got adblock into vanadium

anything you use w/ your google account they will have the data of.

Qubes is very limited what they can do. Much like GrapheneOS. GrapheneOS is starting on a drastically more secure base project

anupritaisno1[m]: oh good gravy XD

It's not much tbh

Anyone can do this given enough time

android, 'drastically more secure' than fedora?

anne232: yes

The only thing android doesn't have is stack probing

Qubes is a great project it's just not going to compare to multi billion dollar projects like AOSP, ChromeOS, macOS, and iOS.

then why is it commonly said that android is quite vulnerable?

Otherwise android has everything better than fedora

macos and ios are jokes lmao

I mean the limited functionality alone makes those projects so shitty

Because people who say that are comparing it to the iPhone

The iPhone is substantially more secure than any non-Graphene phone

well android isnt a very good desktop software though

<anne232 "then why is it commonly said tha"> Android is a family of operating systems. AOSP is insanely strong. Your Xiaomi phone that hasn't gotten patches for 2 years is not

android and ios are very competitive now when it comes to seucirty

i think since android 8, its been very competitive

it sucks that we have to constantly have patches to keep something secure lmao

anne232: because Android seeks to get CVEs assigned for every single vulnerability that they discover. Most open source projects just see it as an insult and don't bother reporting CVEs.

ik thats how it is but its sannoying

prior to 8, its been lagging behind ios

There's still a big difference at the hardware level though, no?

jcpicard32[m]: true

<jcpicard32[m] "The iPhone is substantially more"> It trades blows with GrapheneOS and smashes CalyxOS and Stock Android. iPhones are truly not a good thing to have to compare too. GrapheneOS is really the only thing I can say are better

Obviously much smaller with things like Titan M

that's mostly due to diverse hardware ecosystem

right

but the stock pixel vs. stock iphone -- very competitive

the extra security you speak of is really worth the limited functionality of the iphone?

Depends on your threat model

and the fact that its used by simpletons and makes you look like a rich asshole lmao?

If you're a journalist, or working for a political campaign, then yes

anne232: geniuses fuck up too

just so you know

If you want to sysadmin your phone then no

apple is a bad company and i dont want to give my money to them

Most of that is ecosystem issues. Android can't force privacy and security features due to countless apps the would break

Rich with a sub 1000$ phone lol?

<renlord "but the stock pixel vs. stock ip"> If you use Google Play sure

a grand is a lot to drop on a phone.

<anne232 "the extra security you speak of "> Have you tried iOS 12 and 13 they aren't bad

The iPhone SE does exist

most people dont have a grand to spare. I do, but I still wouldnt be willing to buy it.

anne232: you should just use a nokia 2g phone.

$400 for top notch security is not exactly that much

<anne232 "apple is a bad company and i don"> Get a pixel 3a and stick GrapheneOS on it then....

<anne232 "apple is a bad company and i don"> They make money of screwing you on repairs not your data. I prefer that. They also open source half of their OSes

<anne232 "a grand is a lot to drop on a ph"> You aren't rich if you use a 1000$ phone...and Many poor's people have those phones they just buy them at credit

I plan on doing that dazinism

or just use a public payphone

best for privacy.

yeah going in to debt to get a shitty brand name phone as a status symbol

lol

with a paperbag

over your head

public payphone? boi that aint encrypted

And with the microphone unscrewe.

*unscrewed.

Ultimate privacy.

No one will listen to your phone calls then.

Idk man. I've already deleted all my accounts, sold my devices and moved to the desert.

phone calls are obsolete honestly

tap morse with a unique encoding

(This includes the person you're trying to call, but bah, details!)

This message is being sent from a device made from FLOSS sand /S

I hang about payphones and listen to folks chatting

tbh i never seen payphones anymore

i live rural though

dazinism: maybe now would be the time for me to dig out that laser microphone I bought off the Internet somewhere...

anne232: HAM Radio

TheJollyRoger: why u buying such stuff

<anne232 "yeah going in to debt to get a s"> Idk where u from but most people that I knows get their phones at credit, very few buy them at full price outside of their phone providers

I would honestly like to make a poc of audio using gyroscope BTW

I have my amateur radio license renlord:

i mean if i was buying a 1000 phone

iPhone SE is $400. If you need security and privacy with long support there is no better deal

i would pay up front

radixed9[m]: why do amateurs need an amateur radio license?

radixed9: have you considered an upgrade?

i thought you can just use the unlicensed band?

anupritaisno1[m]: Oh, heh, heh, no reason... >_>...

renlord: I think you can, but you're not supposed to go above a certain amount of power.

Funny guys 🙂

well anyways, what currently available phone for graphene OS will have the longest support?

if I get a phone, I want it to last me

3a.

wait for the 4a lol

Then I'd get a 3a or an SE

or a 4a if you can wait

renlord: I think in Canada it's something like 3-5 watts but I am not sure.

<renlord "i thought you can just use the u"> no you can't use a HAM radio without a license

well i havent tried, so i wouldnt know

Source: am a General

I'm like can I get a fucking flagship with LCD jcpicard32

I can't find LCD anywhere

Qled is still far off

Oled has burn-in

how quick do authorities catch on to unlicensed broadcasting/

Yeah. I've just decided I can't win. Especially since I prefer OLED for colors and reading in bed

But that burn-in tho

renlord: You could steal a callsign. If you use it without a callsign someone will report you

and i assume they have sophisticated ways to triangulate the signal?

You would have to known the rules to not get reported so you might as well spend the $25 for a license

or do they drive a van around

Imagine broadcasting over the waves

That's probably good for disaster preparation

<renlord "and i assume they have sophistic"> We have actually practiced that. Not for that reason of course ;)

practice triangulation?

You also can't squat the calling frequency without QSYing

I would like to get my radio license someday, so when my friends and I go on long nature hikes, we can remain in touch over the radio and broadcast at much higher power than we normally would.

<renlord "practice triangulation?"> there are even competitions

<TheJollyRoger "I would like to get my radio lic"> Get an ICOM and pump 7w

interesting..

I have a yaesu and I can only hit 5w on it. Silly safety recommendations

radixed9[m]: hohoho seven watts with a good antenna would be awesome! Those little hand-held walkie talkies we buy at the store never gave us great results, they always start crapping out way too soon.

I also have the waterproofing mine is not very good

whats the range

Currently I've got some Baofeng radios, but they cap out at five. I haven't ever turned them up that high though.

<renlord "whats the range"> around 1 mile with a hill in the way

You can go much lower line of sight

* You can go much longer line of sight

renlord, well... we've been kind of unfortunate but I live in a very hilly area with dense forests, and we're lucky to get more than a kilometre. Two on a very good day, if we're out in the plains.

Yeah you would have to turn up the squelch to get over a mile reliably if it is very bad TheJollyRoger:

live, and play in

Yeah :(

Those little baofengs aren't bad, but I have wanted to get something with more power.

They're certainly a huge step up from those little walkie-talkies you buy at the store.

A mile with stock squelch with a mountain in between and through trees works for me at 5w

Those usually I find last just about one city block and then that's it.

wait... no that was my old radio that was 1.25w? It has been a while since I did a range test

I could try it again, but they are quite impressive

I think you could get 2 miles through a mountain and thick forest(indoors) at least

you might have to play with settings though

Something like that would be boss.

A few of us were thinking we could get a long whip antenna for the guys heading out, and then put one of the antennas up in a tree back at camp.

If you go ICOMs and push 7w and take advantage of their stock great antennas you could do much better

Beautiful.

Aw man thanks!

It is worth it the testing is so cheap

Tech is not hard. General was a little hard(years after tech)

I would never try Expert(not worth it)

Yikes.

I took my General with my Tech without practice and almost got it

Yeah, a range of a few miles would be ideal, something I'd be willing to spend money and time on, when I have more of both...

General is possibly worth studying for right out of the gate

Got it.

Expert is just for the street cred and to help with testing tbh

I have never thought once I wanted Expert

I'm just looking into amateur right now... haven't thought about going any further.

Er, just tech I mean.

You still can go low freq and get access to some high frequency ranges with tech

Whew.

I gotta scoot, but I hope I can pick your brain for this some more, sometime soon!

Anytime man

Thanks!!

<anne232 "I plan on doing that dazinism"> Welcome onboard then. I'm sure you'll learn to love all our crew- including the extreme paranoid, extremely correct, pedants and jokers...

Time to broadcast music illegally then

Anime music /lenny

<anupritaisno1[m] "Anime music /lenny"> :lenny

Okay doesn't work

Fun fact music is banned on HAM radio

What's a ham

Hamfisted referring to CQ

* Hamfisted referring to CW

RiotX crapped out on me

You ever get that feeling when you remove your earphones

And everything is suddenly loud as hell around you

The loRa stuff is interesting. Got a friend thats been messing with DisasterRadio - f-droid.org/app/tk.giesecke.disaster_radio

radixed9:

<anupritaisno1[m] "And everything is suddenly loud "> Only when I listen to music too loud

cn3m: RiotX regularly starts lagging then dies on me

Makes no sense eh

<dazinism "cn3m: RiotX regularly starts lag"> It's so bad this patch

It is a strange feeling anupritaisno

cn3m: heard it was problematic so havent updated yet

<dazinism "cn3m: heard it was problematic s"> I'm on it. I should use im

I use minivector when RiotX is annoying me

Sometimes minivector annoys me

Riot Desktop is good for me

In the browser ofc

I had issues with riootx update but after cleaning data it fixed all my issues but someone said clearing cache is enough

Trying cleared cache

I updated riotx today

Yea same

Apple Music is so good on GrapheneOS, but truly terrible meh on Windows

RiotX has an in app clear cache, which I think does something a bit different. Has helped me with some problems - settings>general>clear cache

radixed9: that some new music?

*throws apples down the stairs to hear music*

Didn't work

Interesting I updated to the new one I didn't see

Enable fail fast

Got rid of the stuck messages

Your lag may become a crash

Ah, yeah, didnt think of enabling fail fast, but probably would make experience nicer...

That lagging can be 🧐

Fail fast is on now

Locked the bootloader

Not hard to undo

Lmao

They sell them for 1500 dollars on ebay

Yes. 1150-1500. I was wondering if it was somebody associated with Daniel or other devs

I somehow can't see the screenshots. I am using riot.

It also seems they are using BlackBerrys uem to remotely wipe the phone

They also talk about the whole story and even how copperheados stole the funds and seized the infrastructure

I see the usual 'military grade encryption' buzzword lol

* I see the usual 'military grade protection' buzzword lol

Now the screenshots work had to open and close the app.

* I see the usual 'military grade protection ans encryption' buzzword lol

They also seem to offer 3 chatapps specter (never heard of it) silent and signal.

He managed to sell one at least 😀

Easy money

Wow..

I hope he donate some money to the project at least

This guy also selling grapheneos phones has an Option to donate money at the checkout: openyx.io

At least this one is a bit cheaper, the phone more recent and probably supported for a longer time. But i would not trust a preconfigured phone

They can always factory reset but if someone buy from them i doubt that they knows how to or care about it.

A friends start-up asked me to install grapheneos on 4-5 phones. What would you consider an appropriate donation for the devs? I thought taking 20 bucks for the installation + donation to grapheneos. Also I recommended signal as secure messenger against business espionage as it seems the best choice for this adversary?

$20 per device sounds like a good deal, especially if you consider the >$1000 for those on eBay

I found a guy who install gos for ~120€, but for a friend 20$ sounds good

But how much should I ask for the devs? 20 as well? So in total 40 per device? (As I wrote it is a startup all people there work for free at the moment) gos installation is a lot easier than installing lineage os which I used to do for 25-40.

people pay money to install roms?

Yes. Mostly non tech savy people who are privacy conscious or who want to use their phones longer than the official EOL (lineage os)

Yeah do it on GitHub and it will be matched

In my experience there are many people feel very uncomfortable with their phones but they don't know or also don't have a passion to install custom ROMs. Some people are also afraid of bricking their phones. I am happy to teach people how to flash a ROM but most just want to have it done and are happy to pay a few bucks for it.

@cn3m:privacytools.io: thanks for the reminder. I will donate on github then.

<barrikade[m] "@cn3m:privacytools.io: thanks fo"> Cheers

barrikade: guess if its a friend ask them to donate something reasonable / that they can afford.

if they consider they continue to get value from using GrapheneOS to continue to make contributions

question re bluetooth, not sure if its my phone or normal for graphene. I connected my pixel 3 to car bluetooth kit (new kit working proeperly with iphone). but it doens't auto re-connect like my iphone would. so connect, turn engine off, bluetooth powers off. then when starting engine agian it should reconnect but it doesnt. i have to go into settings and manually pair it each time. is this normal for graphene? if not i

another pixel when i can to see if its the phone.

iirc grugq looked at having a pre-secured phone with Graphene OS and marketing it with some choice secure apps where purchases would contribute to each of the developers but they decided there wasn't enough interest.

hypokeimenon: yeah, at the price they were looking for, which I'm not sure they ever publicly disclosed.

They were looking to pull in enough to fund continued development of some (proprietary?) stuff they added, also to fund being able to donate devices to worthy causes

Then theres all the logistics of flashing and delivery. Also after sales support, dealing with warranties etc but I guess all that would apply to anyone trying to sell .

I'm ranting a bit here

Seems like school administration here doesnt even care about securitu

Like they're telling me to just open a potentially malicious link

a shortener link that is blocked by AdGuard

And that was from the supposedly top university in our country

so appaling!

So much for a supposedly eduction-rich and academic freedom university who dont care for their student's privacy and security!

furofuro_01[m], scan with virustotal.com/gui/home/url

search isnt found

It's a t(dot)ly link

My goodness, what a disaster this world is...

Or rather any administration...

Any t(dot)ly deshotener or other deshortening methods

😳️

It's hideous. They're making me ignore chromium warning

Correction, ungoogled chromium

They want me to open Advanced and ignore it

But my adguard blocks it anyways so...

Thanks.

np

You're a lifesaver.

Any corrupt administration is adversary

to privacy and security.

They dont want to give the longer link. Such pricks.

🙁

People are way too undereducated in privacy and security, including myself

What works for them in convenience, works for the..

* What works for them in convenience, works for them...

I'm disappointed that even the top universities do this...

Rant done. This is why I need GrapheneOS soon -sighs-

I can't simply trust typical administration to keep my data safem

The link isn't even that long tbf

<furofuro_01[m] "Rant done. This is why I need Gr"> But the delays is kinda making me tense.

* []

* .

* .

* .

* .

* Seems like school administration here doesnt even care about security

If you hit the button "multiple users off" will that sign you out of user accounts?

If anyone knows where there is more info on android user accounts I'm willing to read

<interceptingfist "If you hit the button "multiple "> :O

source.android.com/devices/tech/admin/multi-user?hl=en#definitions would probably be a good place to start.

AOSP == GrapheneOS upstream, and upstream for basically all Android projects.

yeah among other upstream projects

> <@furofuro_01:matrix.org> :O

> I hope it'll be a solution for VPN leak in multiple profiles.

I use a VPN router 80% of time

AOSP itself has a lot of upstream projects itself

and then we add more

<interceptingfist "> <@furofuro_01:matrix.org> :O"> Not everyone can do that though. Still no open router for mine

<interceptingfist "> <@furofuro_01:matrix.org> :O"> Nice for you though

I understand

* Nice for you though

What VPN brand you got?

I just use pia for the router

For now, I blend in with ProtonVPN

Not much better option if one cant pay yet

Yea :/

It's a recipe for slow net if one will try to put that in router

<DannyWorkOrderPr "AOSP == GrapheneOS upstream, and"> Unfortunately they run in the background but it doesn't say if you turn off its stops them or not

If you can select t"urn off multiple user accounts and if actually stop them from running in the background " that's way easier and effective than restart in

* If you can select "turn off multiple user accounts and if actually stop them from running in the background " that's way easier and effective than restart in

I used ProtonVPN. Limited functionality. Not really a problem for me though. I really enjoy what they offer you.

I am really enjoying Graphene OS so far. First time ever using a custom ROM. I always wanted to but always got phones that were harder to unlock the bootloader.

Even more so carrier-locked.

I remember it was talked here about why pgp or gpg was insecure and full of bugs, etc... but I can't remember why, can you refresh my memory?

jalb66: just look back in the logs

strcat[m]: thanks

<defconanon12[m] "I used ProtonVPN. Limited functi"> It's a nonissue though. It's one of the best free vpn options, although not too great

PGP is an overcomplex, poorly designed legacy crypto approach, and is PARTICULARLY bad when used for messaging

GPG is a particularly bad implementation of it with a lot of further usability and security issues

just as gnutls is a particularly poorly done and insecure TLS implementation which manages to make OpenSSL look great

and OpenSSL is garbage so...

to compare TLS with PGP, PGP is stuck in the SSL 2 era, it's best to avoid it entirely and use secure, modern cryptography designs instead

strcat[m]: thanks a lot

look back in the logs for details

I will

even if PGP wasn't overly complex, legacy crypto it is not suitable for secure messaging at all

it's not really suitable for anything

And what do you think about omemo?

use signify for signing / verification, use the Signal protocol for secure messaging with forward secrecy, use AGE for encrypting files

jalb66: it's an implementation of the Signal protocol for XMPP essentially

So it's good

jalb66: with support for multi-device

jalb66: it's a good concept

I can't speak to how well it's implemented

I know you're not a xmpp fan 🙂

strcat: is this the AGE you are talking about? github.com/FiloSottile/age

But it works very well for me and it's very fast and it also uses Omemo and encrypted groups

Few people in the group or it fails

alzxjm: yes

alzxjm: use signify for signing, age for file encryption

I must search about AGE

do not use either for secure messaging - use a proper protocol for secure messaging with forward secrecy, Signal protocol is the state of the art

here's an example situation, lets say you have an encrypted group chat with 5 people where messages self-destruct after 2 days

an attacker is monitoring one of these users, capturing all the traffic being sent

at some point they obtain their device and get them to unlock it, or brute force their lock method

if you used encrypted chat based on PGP, they've obtained ALL of your group chat messages

A compromised user?, because using encryption

endpoint compromise or otherwise

if you used the Signal protocol, they've only gotten the messages from the past 2 days that weren't yet deleted on the device

Ah yes, I know that about PGP

PGP is not appropriate for secure messaging, the design is fundamentally inappropriate for it

<strcat[m] "if you used the Signal protocol,"> Yay perfect forward secrecy

Yeah

and it is not good for signing/verification or file encryption either

it has serious flaws for those too

I don't know why people continue using gpg in emails

it also has serious core flaws like using SHA1 for fingerprints and being full of really badly designed / implemented crypto

Fun fact, you could potentially do double ratcheting with pgp

it should just not be used

But, its a completely nightmare to us

sha1!!!!

.use

the keyring / web of trust approach is also really bad

Makes using pgp normally childsplay

it makes things really complicated and hard to do correctly

here's a question

Wow... sha1 yet

how do you use gpg to verify a file with a key? what's the command to do that?

S it's not a good idea to encrypt a file with gpg -a --cipher-algo AES256 file?

Uh, import key to keyring (lol) gpg --verify <file> (assuming signature isn't detached)

So it's not a good idea to encrypt a file with gpg -a --cipher-algo AES256 file?

that is not what gpg --verify does

gpg --verify uses ANY key in the keyring

<strcat[m] "how do you use gpg to verify a f"> gpg -e file

strcat[m]: right

how do you specify which key should be used to verify

oh wait

you said verify

I'm blind

And I need coffee

Hmm

GPG will use ANY key in the keyring

That's true

and it will output which key it used using a sha1-based fingerprint

with output that you have to... parse?

:-o

and is a horrible design imo

strcat[m]: yup...

there is gpgme which supposedly provides an API that makes it easy to use correctly

but nope

I suppose this is AGE: v

the opposite

I suppose this is AGE: github.com/FiloSottile/age

jalb66: yes, that's the reference implementation

it's a spec others can implement

ok, thx

jalb66: you should use age + signify atm

age is encryption with integrity

ok 🙂

but if you want to verifiable it came from you, you also need to use signify atm - although age is probably going to support specifying a key as the sender and verifying that

it always has integrity (can't tamper with the message)

but atm it's designed in a way that doesn't confirm where it came from and the docs will tell you to use signify

If it's only to encrypt a file to upload to the Cloud, is it enough to use only age?

no you should use age + signify

Ok

until age supports that functionality itself

it's just early on and it's not added yet since they are doing things in a really rigorous / well reviewed way before adding it

jalb66: if you encrypt with a *passphrase*, you don't need to use signify, but you generally shouldn't use a passphrase rather than a key

Yes, I know, it's only to make the file "more secure" with a large passphrase

But I suppose it can be guessed that way

jalb66: if you use a key, it currently separates the concept of encryption with integrity + signing so you need signify

just because of how that works

It's to use a cloud

jalb66: basically, atm it encrypts something for someone's private key using their public key

with integrity

OK, I must install it and see 🙂

jalb66: providing signing to prove it came from you is beyond just encrypting it for them and you may not want to do it

Anyway I already have signify

Ok, then I'll use it with signify

so, atm it supports 2 options

And see the options

encrypt file using someone's public key so they can decrypt

or symmetric encryption / authentication using a passphrase

both have integrity, it just needs to be noted that when encrypting something using someone's public key

if you want to prove it came from you, you also need to use signify

make sense?

Yes

and so for example to backup files on the cloud

you want to encrypt them to yourself and also sign them so you verify it's what you uploaded

OK

so you need age + signify for that

unless you use a passphrase (which COULD be a strong key if you auto-generate a long enough random one)

and then being able to decrypt it verifies authenticity too

I'ĺl see how to use them both

Is AGE only good for encrypting files you wanna upload to a cloud or its what should be used for encrypting files locally as well?

If I toggle that switch at top right, will it sign out of all user accounts or at least stop them from running in background

mxnorvak[m], what's the difference? 😉

I think both

mxnorvak: you can use it to encrypt files locally but then you're depending on a passphrase since you're just going to have the key locally

unless you mean on a flash drive or w/e

it's perfect for encrypting stuff you're putting on a flash drive

mxnorvak: basically, either use age to encrypt with a passphrase

or use age to encrypt something to someone's public key and most of the time also sign that with signify to prove it came from you

<furofuro_01[m] "It's a nonissue though. It's one"> Very true. I would say if you want the utmost privacy and security Mullvad VPN. I also like how that VPN service is willingly pushing boundaries.

those are the 2 main ways to use it

I don't know much but i remember JellyRoger telling me if what I'm looking for is only encrypting my files and backing them up locally , VeraCrypt is great and AGE is the way to go for when you wanna upload the encrypted file to a cloud

if you're just encrypting it for yourself or as a one off thing

then using a strong randomly generated passphrase is perfectly appropriate

mxnorvak: you don't use AGE for disk encryption

Can only encrypt individual files and not folders/directories ATM, right?

you can use it for encrypting an archive you want to back up though

cx2: yes that's what it's for

it's a file encryption tool with modern encryption providing integrity and streaming

<strcat[m] "mxnorvak: you don't use AGE for "> Ok i see

Been casually using rAGE since TJR suggested it, so far easy to use. Keeping a close eye on the project.

Thanks

cx2: the spec provides random access (seekable)

"strcat" (matrix.to/#/@strcat:matrix.org): BTW why does zygote use JIT but not system server?

Security wise, which one is better, encrypting only the files you want or full disk encryption?

anupritaisno1: nothing uses ART JIT on GrapheneOS

mxnorvak: neither

Yes but why google made zygote compiled by jit a thing?

mxnorvak: FDE is not a good approach to use as the only approach, at all

mxnorvak: because as soon as you've booted and decrypted the key is in memory from that point onwards until you power off

it ONLY protects the data at rest - i.e. the data stored on the drive

So what about TCG opal?

<strcat[m] "mxnorvak: because as soon as you"> So that's why when they wanna arrest someone they want their system to be turned on and signed in ?

Okay yes

Got it

mxnorvak: it doesn't have to be signed in for the key to be in memory

with FDE, once you boot and enter the decryption passphrase, the whole thing is decrypted in memory

when the screen is locked, it's still decrypted and accessible by the OS

Honestly I do fscrypt + dm-crypt "mxnorvak" (matrix.to/#/@mxnorvak:matrix.org)

mxnorvak: and it's not per-user or anything

it has nothing to do with being signed in

So i guess FDE is only good for an external hard drive you want to encrypt right?

Oh no

Does the key for that hard drive also stay in memory even if you've unplugged it?

<mxnorvak[m] "Does the key for that hard drive"> Computer either needs to be powered off, or does from low battery.

<anupritaisno1[m] "Honestly I do fscrypt + dm-crypt"> Thanks for letting me know what you use , unfortunately i don't know what any of that meant

"mxnorvak" (matrix.to/#/@mxnorvak:matrix.org): combine FBE on top of FDE

Aah

Like encrypting my files with AGE and then using VeraCrypt for FDE

Chrome OS uses fscrypt, right?

alzxjm: ChromeOS and AOSP both use per-user filesystem-based encryption

ChromeOS originally used an earlier userspace implementation of it before ext4/f2fs supported it

alzxjm: verified boot for the OS, per-user filesystem-based encryption for user data, device-based encryption for system data

* alzxjm: verified boot for the OS, per-user filesystem-based encryption for user data, device-based filesystem encryption for system data

they're very similar in approach

different implementations other than sharing a lot of infrastructure

<strcat[m] "mxnorvak: neither"> What is the problem with FBE in this case?

you said FDE or manually encrypting files

you never mentioned FBE

and you proposed those 2 things as alternatives which doesn't make sense

FBE is filesystem-based encryption not manually encrypting files

My bad

I meant FBE

Sry, i better learn more about these terms before asking

FBE is granular, fscrypt is basically per-directory encryption

and each file has a separate encryption key generated from the directory key

AOSP uses it for per-profile (per-user) encryption keys

it can be made more granular than that

Mind if I ask a slightly-related question? Arch Linux supports AppArmor with linux-hardened. Is it reasonably secure to run apps in a Firejail with AppArmor enabled?

<strcat[m] "FBE is granular, fscrypt is basi"> Thanks again :)

Firejail is a privilege escalation hole

It's the opposite of reasonably secure

If I've I bought a pixel 3 and used it for a year isnitnworth it to flash it to grapheme and use it

Or for actual stealth do i need to buy another that wasn't purchased new

<interceptingfist "If I've I bought a pixel 3 and u"> Never too late to switch. :)

Yea but I'm fully on record with all my real info on that device

The imei practically has my face all over it

Does flashing it to graphene do make it anonymous

As long as I use fdroid

interceptingfist: To who?

Google amazon eBay google pay google photos government NSA lol everything

<strcat[m] "it can be made more granular tha"> What pros vs cons does that give you though?

the only con is needing to implement it

<interceptingfist "Google amazon eBay google pay go"> Too vague. Yes, your carrier knows it's you, because you put the SIM you pay for into the phone.

Give us an actual threat model question, and we can answer it. Nothing is a silver bullet.

Is it more of a threat to any adversary if you used a phone for regular use and then put graphene on it, or is it best to buy a new or used one and put graphene on it

Can you install Windows 10 Enterprise on windows secured core PCs without losing / losing the ability to reimplement the boot security features?

Does the info that once was attached to the phone matter

<interceptingfist "Does the info that once was atta"> Only to the entities that receive your IMEI

Which are your carrier, and anyone they share it with

Which (hopefully) seems to just include government at this time.

Ok

<DannyWorkOrderPr "Only to the entities that receiv"> Thank you

Very welcome!

If I toggle that switch at top right, will it sign out of all user accounts or at least stop them from running in background

<DannyWorkOrderPr "Very welcome!"> Do you about thia

* Do you about the user account

<strcat[m] "the only con is needing to imple"> And the pros?

Is there any signficant improvement in security?

blacklight447: fine-grained lets you keep stuff at rest when not being used

such as the per-user thing

I see, nice

<interceptingfist "Screenshot_20200618-113833_1.png"> This is like with UAC in Windows? Using an invited account would be more secure?

Is possible to use invited account as daily basis?

Anyone know if shelter app works on graphene?

interceptingfist: yeah it works fine. Security wise its not as safe as using a separate user profile, but the fact it shared the UI/clipboard etc. can be nice for some things.

Cloning apps to the work profile often doesnt work. Its random, swiping the app closed and reopening can make cloning work again

<dazinism "Cloning apps to the work profile"> That's not GrapheneOS specific

*swiping the shelter app closed

<dazinism "interceptingfist: yeah it works "> My concern is overloading my device since the profiles continue running in the background.

<dazinism "*swiping the shelter app closed"> Do you run multiple user accounts to keep apps compartmentalized

Aw darn, I missed the GPG talk :P.

interceptingfist: the OS shuts them down as needs the resources, same as it does for apps in the main profole

*as it

interceptingfist: yes I do a bit. Tend to mainly use main and work profile, but some stuff in other user profiles

<TheJollyRoger "Aw darn, I missed the GPG talk :"> Greasy Privacy Guesses

dazinism: do u use graphene? If so how's the battery life going back and forth between profiles?

cn3m[m]: ahahahaha XD

do y'all ever sleep?

lmao

interceptingfist: yeah I'm on GrapheneOS. Havent noticed battery drain being a problem. Thing that tends to eat battery is apps that arent well optimised for AOSP.

interceptingfist: I use different profiles on Graphene, but I do it largely for convenience, meaning that I am generally leaving the profiles running around the clock. The effects of letting the phone idle with multiple profiles and apps running in those profiles is largely negligible, provided you're not running some peer to peer battery hog like AnTox or something along those lines.

RiotX, Riot.im and Signal can use a fair bit

(This should not be construed as an endorsement of AnTox. I did it because AnTox is the most battery-hungry app I know of)

Although I tend to set them up so they dont as I dont use any as a primary messenger.

what do you suggest as a 'primary messenger', dazinism ?

dazinism: why do you use work profile?

Depends on your situation I guess, also what your contacts use. I've liked the battery performance of converstaions.im and I've got friends to join a server I trust.

Conversations is XMPP, right?

Also use signal a bit. But I check it somewhat irregularly. When I remember.

dont they have OTR or omemo? does the server matter too much in this case?

doesnt signal persistently run?

TheJollyRoger: thanks for the info about the apps

anne232: yeah with xmpp the server matters.

interceptingfist: anytime, as always your mileage is going to vary. You should be able to monitor your battery usage.

even if you're using otr or omemo?

<anne232 "do y'all ever sleep?"> Not much

I use omemo rather than OTR, think most people do now?

TheJollyRoger: I'm planning on putting shopping apps in one profile, for example, that way they're compartmentalized and not linked. So I can basically have two eBay accounts on my device.

I still know hella ppl who dont know about omemo lol

Always omemo

alot of clients havent adopted omemo afaik? alot of people use pidgin

anne232: very much so. Consider this: your XMPP contact list by design is stored on your server uencrypted and your admin can essentially impersonate you to your contacts at will.

That's a good point.

the admin could see your contacts but im not to worried about being impersonated just b/c my contacts would know it wasnt me bc otr and omemo tell the other user if thyere contacting you from an unrecognized computer

In this entire world, where I've gotten people to use XMPP, I've only met one person who didn't simply set their client to simply blindly trust all new devices because verifying them all across every single device was too much work.

<interceptingfist "dazinism: why do you use work pr"> To have apps running and readily available at the same time, but compartmentalised. Especially apps that only work with storage permission.

well tbh its outside alot of peoples threat model

Then with that in mind, you trust your service providers.

Therefore, service provider matters.

not alot of people can expect to have their xmpp contacts being impersonated

oh yeah i agree w/ u now im just saying

dazinism: OK thank you!

interceptingfist: hey right on.

<anne232 "doesnt signal persistently run?"> I have it in the work profile and use the freeze function in shelter to close it down. I guess 'force stop' in the main profile, or a different user profile may also stop it, but not tried. (doesn't stop it when its in a work profile)

Force Stop will work in a different profile. When an app is in "STOPPED" state it can't restart until you manually tap on it or reopen the window (if you forgot to close it)

anne232: to get a good experience with modern clients (especially on mobile using conversations.im) its good to check the server with compliance.conversations.im/about

interceptingfist: I'll probably change things around a load when scoped storage arrives, with Android R, in a few months.

I've been uncomfortable about apps that have needed storage to work. Things have (painfully) slowly been improving, but scoped storage will make things a whole lot better

A load of things will get a load easier. Currently heres a load of the tricks I use to try to stop data leaks through shared storage.

lol, that was a load of loads. ..

dazinism: I'll check those loads

Also where can I read about scooed storage and android r

Ic now android r is android 11

Does apple already basically donscoped storage

Do scoped

Yes apple has fully scoped apps

It's much stronger in that regard

does anyone know where i can find some pixel 3s for sale? seems like aliexpress is my best option but i'm not too sold on it

You can get them around 200 on ebay

Pixel 3 probable cheaper than 3a

paintedman: your wifi change to android-prepare-vendor doesn't work, breaks the build

you must not be doing a clean generation of vendor files or not doing a clean build

cn3m: what will be the main differences between iOS and android 11 for privacy

Will they be similar in privacy after android r/11 is released

<interceptingfist "cn3m: what will be the main diff"> Stock Android or GrapheneOS?

<interceptingfist "Will they be similar in privacy "> GrapheneOS 11/R I will think is pretty comparable to iOS 13. GrapheneOS will be better out of the box for sure

Stock android

Gapps are 10-50x more data hungry than iOS and you lack a lot of key controls. iOS will have much stronger scoping. iOS will be vastly more private than Stock Android

What will make grapheme that much better though? The freedom?

Oh yea true, I'm slowly forgetting about the g apps lmao

<interceptingfist "What will make grapheme that muc"> GrapheneOS has notable hardware and software privacy features with more in the pipeline

Thanks graphene and f droid for that

I can't wait until we've got a first-party app store... can't wait to get off F-Droid.

All it really needs is the scoped storage

The user profiles are insanely strong which helps, but they aren't that usable

<interceptingfist "Thanks graphene and f droid for "> F-Droid is the one thing really holding GrapheneOS back security wise imo

Yeah.

GrapheneOS needs a strong store

Is there a good collection of recommendations for maximizing privacy on stock Android for those who need to use the stock ROM?

F-Droid and Aurora are both concerning(Aurora notably less so)

<alzxjm[m]1 "Is there a good collection of re"> Disable gapps

alzxjm: download f droid instead of using google

<interceptingfist "All it really needs is the scope"> I would like to see more and there are GitHub issues for it

Don't log into any of the bloatware don't make a google id

cn3m: it just appears easier to get a cheap $150 iPhone 7 and be done

iOS is substantially better designed for app restrictions. There's a large improvement over AOSP

AOSP has notable leads in other areas though mostly security

Then again the store situation is concerning on Android

It should be possible down the line to make "app restricted" builds of GrapheneOS in the future, and I think the idea is disallowing apps and other code that aren't part of the system image

GrapheneOS vs iOS is really down to how the user uses it

This seems like a good solution to the store conundrum: blog.project-insanity.org/2019/06/1…-store-apks-to-private-f-droid-repo

Not for sake of "HURR DURR DRM" but for security :)

lol

Ehehehe, yeah.

They are both incredibly strong project

<alzxjm[m]1 "This seems like a good solution "> F-Droid just needs to go entirely

Can graphene possibly make user accounts able to be signed out of? I really think privacy wise that would crush competition

F-Droid is not a solution

Long ago I thought forking F-Droid was a possiblity, but from what I know there's just too many ifs and buts there that starting anew would be a better idea

<interceptingfist "Can graphene possibly make user "> You can do that already

GrapheneOS app store when

interceptingfist: the best way to get a feature in GrapheneOS is to send in a Pull Request. In the future GrapheneOS has wanted to expose more profile functionality to the user, but the fastest way to start on that path is to give us a step.

Not even F-Droid installing only apps mirrored from the Play Store? These seems to be a good middle-ground.

The problem is F-Droid itself. It's a much older app that's full of legacy code.

<jknsec[m] "GrapheneOS app store when"> When people start contributing

Yeah. We need an app developer.

TheJollyRoger: do you send pull request on website?

Does the store have to be integrated or can it be a completely separate app?

iOS insanely strong background rules, their full app scoping, and much more respectful developer community (with regards to least privilege) is where it pulls ahead. This can all be added to GrapheneOS at some point which would make in hands down the strongest

<EssentialChaos[m "Does the store have to be integr"> It would be a seperate system app

"TheJollyRoger" (matrix.to/#/@freenode_TheJollyRoger:matrix.org): I know of one

<radixed9[m] "It would be a seperate system ap"> So it doesn't have to be developed for Graphene specifically?

I'm an app developer, but I'm also the only one really active on Reddit. I can't do both

<EssentialChaos[m "So it doesn't have to be develop"> Right now the Updater app needs a lot of work. I am working on letting Vanadium, PDF Viewer, and Auditor update OTA. That would be the framework needed to expand to potentially shipping third party apps

interceptingfist: once you've written the code, you send pull requests containing your contribution to the project's github at github.com/GrapheneOS

<radixed9[m] "Right now the Updater app needs "> I am asking, because maybe someone who doesn't have Graphene could work on this

The developers will review your code and if it looks good, they'll merge it with the GrapheneOS source tree.

anupritaisno1[m]: oh wow. Could you give him a shout for us...? We'd desperately need the help.

cn3m[m]: might be easier to find somebody else for reddit than an app dev perhaps

cn3m: > I'm an app developer, but I'm also the only one really active on Reddit. I can't do both

Yeah definitely don't stop doing the reddit proselytizing. I started paying attention to your comments when you started showing up in every single thread. Probably the reason I'm here at all.

cdesai: agreed

Just in general an alternative to Play store

<EssentialChaos[m "I am asking, because maybe someo"> It will be based off the current framework in GrapheneOS and that needs improvements first. This has to start with GrapheneOS or CalyxOS

<EssentialChaos[m "Just in general an alternative t"> The Play Store is very impressive for security and that would be quite the achievement

Oh ok

<cdesai "cn3m: might be easier to find so"> I keep offering to teach people everything I know and do mock debates. There's no interest

"cn3m" (matrix.to/#/@cn3m:privacytools.io): I'd like to learn someday :D

The Linux kernel? Too boring

Haha don't give up the fight man

"TheJollyRoger" (matrix.to/#/@freenode_TheJollyRoger:matrix.org): will do tomorrow afternoon he's definitely asleep now

Okay! awesome man, thank you.

"cn3m" (matrix.to/#/@cn3m:privacytools.io): nah just

I don't think I can get app devs on glassrom

So I'll have to do it myself

interceptingfist: issue is most of the phones on ebay seem to ship from usa and since i'm not american i'd have to pay a fuckton of customs tax

looking for something from eu but everything here seems real expensive

anupritaisno1: read lots of documentation

Does Google have something like "Safe Browsing", but for Android apps?

Well I have past experience in Java, kotlin and even flutter/dart

I assume the range of apps would initially quite limited? Of course we need to provide the ability to sideload apps in general, but that's very much a given, at least until the catalogue is big enough. It would be great of we could have stuff like the signed Google Play-free Signal apk and other (presumably) highly used apps. I'm sure many of those devs would be cooperative.

But idk

Something is definitely lacking

<EssentialChaos[m "Does Google have something like "> Yes, Play Protect and it's not as horrible as people say

<jknsec[m] "I assume the range of apps would"> Of course, it would be very limited for quite some time. Ideally people wouldn't need to enable unknown sources

<cn3m[m] "Yes, Play Protect and it's not a"> Can it be used server-side?

> Ideally people wouldn't need to enable unknown sources

Wasn't this the setup in CopperheadOS?

If GrapheneOS had a store it would highly curated Play Protect would not be relevant

What apps do you all use for weather (if any)

alzxjm[m]1: Although back in the day, the project did bundle F-Droid with the privileged extension, this approach is no longer viable today, since Technology Marches On

<TheJollyRoger "alzxjm: Although back in the day"> CalyxOS does this. It is not used in GrapheneOS as it doesn't meet the security standards

I actually talked to the social media manager of CopperheadOS before changing my mind when I discovered Graphene OS. They still running with the misinformation campaign?

<defconanon12[m] "I actually talked to the social "> Yes

Yes.

radixed9[m]: I agree!

That is terrible. Always trying to cut the top developer. I knew Graphene OS was the real deal. That is why I jumped on it. If I didn't discover Graphene. I would be on Copperhead ew.

<defconanon12[m] "I actually talked to the social "> All day, every day.

All we can do is spread a campaign ourselves of educating people from right and wrong. Not everyone will listen but most hopefully. That is the goal.

Yarr!

<cn3m[m] "I keep offering to teach people "> I'd love to learn. Is this offer still available?

<jcpicard32[m] "I'd love to learn. Is this offer"> Yes, please I'm overworked on this stuff

I stayed up until 5am correcting misinformation last night

Hi all, I am new to Graphese. Which mAil client, not relying on microG works well on graphene ? I need to be sure to get my new email notifications even when phone is locked.

strcat (@strcat:matrix.org): I use this workaround to build with my modifications to android-prepare-vendor 'BUILD_BROKEN_DUP_RULES := true'

I'm a scrub who regurgitates what people like you and Daniel say

Teach me your ways senpai

> I stayed up until 5am correcting misinformation last night

I thought you were in Europe or something. I woke up at 4:50 AM to wake up (east coast time) and saw you posting.

<jcpicard32[m] "I'm a scrub who regurgitates wha"> I'll send you a reading list then you ask any questions regarding it and then we do some mock debates?

That would be awesome. Thanks so much

> I'll send you a reading list then you ask any questions regarding it and then we do some mock debates?

Hey count me in there, too!

<jfbourdeau "Hi all, I am new to Graphese. Wh"> most people use k-9 or fairmail

overheadscallop[, tls !

tks

jcpicard32: alzxjm if you are both serious about helping on Reddit would a group chat work better?

I need whatsapp, telegram, facebook etc. Will using shlter and put them in the work profile ok ? Good practice ?

shelter

Depends if you use a VPN or not jfbourdeau

> jcpicard32: alzxjm if you are both serious about helping on Reddit would a group chat work better?

Works for me. I doubt I'll be able to muster your stamina but I'm happy to pitch in as much as I can.

2 people doing a quarter my work would take off half my load

That's fine with me

I'm pretty busy as I'm a full time student and work 20 hrs/week but I can put the time I was using to read about this stuff into helping with a bit of your stuff

I'd be happy to help with it

Okay I'm setting up the room

I would help out as well but I'm pretty busy with work and other projects and I don't know if I would really be able to do any good.

What do you need help with exactly on Reddit?

fighting misinformation

NOOBIE : If need whatsapp, telegram, facebook etc. Is it a good idea to use the shelter App and put them in the work profile ok, a good practice / approach ? Sorry for that noobie question, I habe been IOS all my life, I am new to Android.

Oh I mean I can put in the time for that. Count me in.

> What do you need help with exactly on Reddit?

People like me need to be deprogrammed. Years and years of the FLOSS-at-all-costs dogma.

jfbourdeau: a separate user profile is stronger than a work profile, but less usable

It's tough to swallow at first when someone shows up and starts talking about how Windows 10 LTSC is more secure than Debian.

I mean I could try to see if I can spare some time. I can at least try. Count me in as well if it's not too late.

It is all about catching someone's rational belief that is misinformation and destroying it.

jfbourdeau: hub.libranet.de/wiki/and-priv-sec/wiki/user-profiles

ok tks overheadscallop[ I will do some reading... but if I use Whatsapp and after need to use k9 (with contacts), I somekind need to logout, back in / switch users ??? I will go read your links. Tks for pointing me in the right direction

When I first studied into hacking and OPSEC. I was surprised to find out about IOS and Mac OS. That took me a while to digest. It really shook my world.

jfbourdeau: If whatsapp and k9 are in separate user profiles there's no easy way to share between those apps. If whatsapp is in the work profile and k9 in the main profile, sharing is possible using the built-in app sharing function

I always thought people were less secure on different OSes if you didn't use Linux. Now I think a lot different.

overheadscallop[, yes yes I get it tks. But I though " SHELTER" was doing the same as what you propose, but in a more FLEXIBLE way... but I will try / experience what you propose to see how it goes... As you say it would be more secure... Else, SHELTER was cool ( I am new to it)

<defconanon12[m] "I always thought people were les"> Same here

jfbourdeau: Shelter is just an app that manages the work profile for you.

defconanon12: > I always thought people were less secure on different OSes if you didn't use Linux. Now I think a lot different.

Like I said, deprogramming. This is the dogma (Linux = maximum security) in most of the privacy-focused areas of reddit.

<overheadscallop[ "jfbourdeau: Shelter is just an a"> Not sure if it's still working ok, or supported. I installed it the other day and can't seem to install any APKs into it. could be user error though as its first try for me

alzxjm: Definitely. Very dogma. Reddit not just in Linux communities but quite a bit in Tor communities and the such. "What is the best OPsec?" Oh just download Qubes OS with Whonix you will be fine! An average user would do this but an advanced user will layout the vulnerabilities and how you can cover your bases. Even if you cover all of them nothing is truly 100% foolproof.

Is Tor even safe to use nowadays?

<defconanon12[m] "alzxjm: Definitely. Very dogma. "> I mean, Qubes with Whonix seems like a good combo, though

<jknsec[m] "Is Tor even safe to use nowadays"> Tor Browser is the only reasonably sound attempt at web privacy

I hear various things. Not much I've seen backed up, though.

<jknsec[m] "Is Tor even safe to use nowadays"> safe to use, but no magic pill. needs using with knowledge and even then it's no guarantee of much

Honorable mention to Safari on iOS

<radixed9[m] "Honorable mention to Safari on i"> you think thats bvetter than firefox?

oh sorry, iOS. i mena desktop

* oh sorry, iOS. i mean desktop

Btw, here's a qeustion, do you need an adblocker to look like other people?

Bromite on GrapheneOS?

EssentialChaos: I am not saying it isn't but do you think the average user is going to know how to protect themselves from hyperjacking?

<alzxjm[m]1 "Bromite on GrapheneOS?"> Why use Bromite instead of Vanadium?

<alzxjm[m]1 "Bromite on GrapheneOS?"> Vanadium blends in better. It is designed to look like every other Chrome and Pixel user

Gotta harden that Qubes install

<EssentialChaos[m "Btw, here's a qeustion, do you n"> Since other people have adblockers because ads are annoying?

From grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing:

"Bromite provides integrated ad-blocking and more advanced anti-fingerprinting."

* Btw, here's a question, do you need an adblocker to look like other people?

alzxjm: Bromite is a good project, and the only browser besides Vanadium that the project recommends. However Vanadium is still the most recommended for reasons above, plus the security hardening work done by GrapheneOS

<jknsec[m] "Is Tor even safe to use nowadays"> A tool is only as strong as the user, if you're stuck in bad practices then it will be much easier to identity you with greater precision, if you are in a habit of good privacy practices then I think Tor is an extremely powerful tool if you're looking for increased anonymity.

From grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing:

<radixed9[m] "Vanadium blends in better. It is"> thanks I didn't know that.

Qubes works poorly for me because I literally have to manually edit boot .cfg files to get it to work and as such Xen doesn't update properly unless I do that with every update.

"Using Vanadium is highly recommended. Bromite is a solid alternative and is the only other browser we recommend. Bromite provides integrated ad-blocking and more advanced anti-fingerprinting. For now, Vanadium is more focused on security hardening and Bromite is more focused on anti-fingerprinting. The projects are collaborating together and will likely converge to providing more of the same features. Vanadium will

be providing content filtering and anti-fingerprinting, but it needs to be done in a way that meets the standards of the project, which takes time."

How does Fennec stack up? The ability to use desktop plugins seems extremely advantageous and pretty powerful.

Isn't that just deMozilla'd Firefox?

I've been using only Vanadium and Tor Browser for now but I'm looking for stronger compartmentalization for my mobile device

faxing: Avoid Firefox on Android. According to the usage guide Firefox and its derivatives (like Fennec) bypass the hardening work

I appreciate the ad-blocking in Bromite. It seems like an acceptable choice.

And have no sandbox other than the application sandbox

Extensions don't do what you think

And as such behind on security updates?

<jknsec[m] "Isn't that just deMozilla'd Fire"> It has no security features and delays updates

oh god

At home I use a pi-hole so Vanadium is fine there.

Fennec F-Droid is quite bad

That's worse

As if Firefox on Android wasn't bad enough

Firefox on Linux as well

alzxjm: You can also set up DNS based ad-filtering that works to adblock in Vanadium. See grapheneos.org/faq#ad-blocking

Isn't it also a bad idea to use For browser on Android. Shouldn't you always be using something dedicated like Whonix or Tails for Tor if you want any semblance of OPSEC?

But, you know, TB is still Gecko and as such bypasses the hardening. Not to mention the unique screen size alone...

I am using Vivaldi on my Linux PC. I was planning to use the Android version on GrapheneOs, Simply because of the BookMarks sync that works well. Is this a bad idea ?

Is there any way to make Vanadium use only incognito mode?

Or do I have to manually make a new incognito tab every time I want to make a new tab

faxing No, not yet anyway. The best you could do is to created a home screen shortcut or something that opens an incognito tab but there's no setting that does that.

<jfbourdeau "I am using Vivaldi on my Linux P"> Vivaldi mocks users concerns about privacy, I wouldn't put much trust in them if I were you. Its also made by the old developers of Opera, who is now involved in predatory loan schemes.

Possibly in the future, though.

Ew Vivaldi

<jknsec[m] "faxing No, not yet anyway. The b"> Okay, that sucks. Thanks for the information

!!!! wow

Vivaldi developers left because of Opera's shady business practices and they have taken privacy more seriously lately. Sadly they stopped uploading source code

Oh yeah I forgot that a bunch of it isn't open source

FLOSS or bust

tks..... Some of you are using Linux ? What do you use : brave ? CHromium ? FF ? as for my Mobile, I will sick with the built-in graphene browser

Also even if that is why they left it doesn't change their mocking of user's concerns about the direction the project was taking in relation to the privacy of users

If the chip was not made with libre sand I want no part in it

Has Vivaldi stopped releasing their Chromium modifications?

tks?

I am running Edge Chromium(WDAG) on Windows 10 Enterprise

Vanadium on GrapheneOS

Is vanadium downloadable without graphene

github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium on Arch Linux and macOS

cool tks

<interceptingfist "Is vanadium downloadable without"> No you wouldn't want it to be either. It is highly integreated with OS security features. Use Bromite

Also I use Tor for almost everything, Firefox for the things that Tor is too slow for, and Brave for logins and purchases on my Debian system

I technically use Qubes but otherwise I use Fedora 32 with Ungoogled Chromium for dev

Tor through Tails/Whonix

ok good

faxing[m], I am debian too ( BUster debian 10 via Bunsenlabs)

I have a Windows system for games but it's pro and not enterprise so it's shit

Ey, nice

I've got my main drive with Debian 10 and another drive with Windows 10 Home that I use for gaming

I've only got that because I've got a steering wheel and oculus rift s and neither of which have any Linux support really

Or I'd replace windows 10 with something like pop or manjaro

can anyone tell me if its considered safe to download and use the APKMirror installer to install their damn .apkm files?!

Apkmirror does signature verification and they have a good reputation. I would trust them more than say F-Droid

oh really? glad I asked, thanks! i was wrongly assuming fdroid was the most trusted and apkm was a bit spammy!

strcat: I'm going to narrow down that list tomorrow to one library (if possible) and then it would be much easier to decide how to fix Wi-Fi problem without workarounds which I use now for debugging

<yekip[m] "oh really? glad I asked, thanks!"> F-Droid is trustworthy. However they have security issues that make me not love the idea

thanks

no idea how to install the damn thing anyway! it just sends me to a google play store link, to get the apkm installer?! if i wanted google, why would i be on apkmirror i tghe first place?!

is pixel 3 an "arm device" or an "arm64 device"?

Pixels are arm64. arm64 is just the 64-bit version of arm.

thank you

Out of pure curiosity, why doesnt GrapheneOS uses Open Gapps? What are the disadvantages? It would fix most app compatibility issues and by my limited understanding, its a safer implementation than MicroG.

see this is the biggest problem I have with their name

this concerns me, not sure if it should. just installed apk mirror installer app. it has a warning/disclaimer which says" We'll partner with Google and use a unique identifier on your device to respect your data usage choice"

open gapps == google apps, the binary apks.

what's open about it is the script they use to generate the zips

I had this exact confusion when I first heard of the name.

cdesai: same

The actual apps are closed source

<cn3m[m] "F-Droid is trustworthy. However "> I mean, its pretty secure if all apps used reproducible builds

<cdesai "open gapps == google apps, the b"> cdesai (@freenode_cdesai:matrix.org): Thanks, but can't you just use a very limited versions of open gapps like Pico? That would still decrease Googles power over your device, while enableing app support.

cosiams[m]: no, because it's not legal to ship them anyway

<cosiams[m] "Out of pure curiosity, why doesn"> Legal issues predominantly

The privacy isn't good either

It's genuinely a bad idea

cn3m: Are you still looking for help with the campaign or are you good?

Thanks for the answers

If you want to do something like that find how people sideload gapps on Huawei cosiams

<defconanon12[m] "cn3m: Are you still looking for "> I am yes

I'm writing a massive guide right now

I am willing to put the time and work in.

If you are interested please dm me

<defconanon12[m] "I am willing to put the time and"> Thanks then please dm me. I can move into development or developer training if enough people help

That would be great too

I've been trying to teach myself but having someone who actually knows what they're doing is always better

Thanks so much for this even

cn3m Done.

What is the campaign about?

cosiams: Fighting misinformation on reddit

cn3m: Alright I DMed you.

I don't claim to know everything. I am still learning myself.

I just know some things and I have used some tools in the past to better protect myself per say.

Similar. I have vested interest in privacy and security and do work that occasionally dips into activism and investigative journalism. I would love it if I could help make the case for the truth, if you will.

Writing is basically my job at this point, pretty much.

Truth always wins and sees light in the end.

I'm writing a huge pastepin of all my recommended readings and explanations

I love real journalism myself. Though not my expertise though I could do it.